Arcs 'n' degrees

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Dave-M
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Re: Arcs 'n' degrees

Post by Dave-M »

Answer to Bent’s allegation that two mediocres equals one tremendous.

First let us examine a big kid and a small kid on a teeter-totter. The big kid has to slide toward the middle to balance the small kid. This is because the force times distance (from the pivot) on one side has to balance the force times distance on the other side.

With a rotating arm, the horizontal distance from the pivot point depends on the sine of the angle from vertical. A table will be provided at the end of this discussion.

Let us assume for convenience that the spring and string forces are constant on the other side of the pull.

Actually these spring forces vary as the square of the distance pulled from zero. That means if a force Fs is required to pull the spring ¼ inch, say, then the force to pull ½ inch is 4xFs, the force to pull ¾ inch is 9xFs, and to pull 1 inch is 16xFs. This calculation is complicated further by the sine of the angle of rotation, which is also non-linear. However, we assume both parties pull the same angles, so the total spring/string forces winds up the same for both.

Jumping ahead to avoid confusion with math derivations, it turns out that the amount of downward rod force, Fr, varies inversely with the sine of the angle of rotation.

That means Fr = K / sine(a) where (a) is the angle of rotation from vertical in degrees, and K is a constant as assumed above (which it really is not).

A crude table of 1/sine(a) follows:

Code: Select all

(a) deg     1/sine(a)
0		infinity
2		28.6
5		11.47
10		5.88
20		2.94
30		2.00
40		1.52
45		1.41
47		1.37
50		1.30
60		1.15
70		1.06
80		1.01
90		1.00
Twice the inverse sine at 45 degrees is 2.82
The inverse sine at 2 degrees is 28.6, which differs a lot from 2.82.

Note that at 90 degrees, the rod force is equal to 1x the spring/string force, the minimum pull force required.
Last edited by Dave-M on Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Bent
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Re: Arcs 'n' degrees

Post by Bent »

Dave, wow! I am sure you're right even though I lost you after the second line. :-)

I concede to your obvious talents. We'll carry on and do the best we can. One things for sure...we're cranking out some nice, great-working steel guitars and that, in the end, is what matters.
http://benrom.com/
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
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Dave-M
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Re: Arcs 'n' degrees

Post by Dave-M »

Thanks, Bent, I can do a little math, but you guys build better guitars, and can play a heck of a lot better than I ever could.
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Bill Ford
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Re: Arcs 'n' degrees

Post by Bill Ford »

Bent,
I'm sure this has been discussed/beat into the ground but, is it better to have the bellcrank stop at 90 deg, or start at 90Deg, or go thru the 90 deg position? The reason for asking is, I have enough room for threaded part to be 1/4" (see dwg.)
and think it will be strong enough to hold OK. I'm thinking that stopping @90 deg will not be a problem. ???
I'm thinking also that the crosshaft hole/slot could be moved to get more meat around the crosshaft,the 1/4"r should be 1/2"r, I don't think the slight change in the geometry will be noticed.

Bill
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Bill Ford
Steeling For Jesus now
S12,CLR..S12MSA"The Universal" both Ext,E9..misc amps and toys.
Bent
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Re: Arcs 'n' degrees

Post by Bent »

Hi Bill,
It's been quiet here. Thanks for breathing some life :-)
As we have seen, the debate is exactly that: To 90° or through 90°?
My opinion is To 90°, not that any of us think it matters all that much because of the small arc, really.
With the way I make things, the To 90° works fine.
Bill, your bell crank looks good but with all due respect, I think you are over-building it. I can't see the need for 1/4" legs on the slot. It will require that much more torque on the screw to tighten it around the shaft. With aluminum you might end up stripping the threads.

The bell cranks pics below, the legs of the square slot are only 1/8" thick and the screw is a 6-32. If the slot fits snug on the shaft, all it takes is a bit of tightening to make it solid. With a 1/4" there I would be concerned that my screw wouldn't be able to pull the leg tight.

The measurements for this crank is:
1/8" legs for slot

Arm where holes are located is 3/16" thick by 3/8" wide. Holes are 7/64" diam(for 3/32" rods). Spaced at .1475" (half of the changer plate hole spacing which is .295)

Backside of shaft slot is about .200" , with just a slight radius(about 1/8"r?)

It looked a bit weak to me, so I clamped the shaft in pic in my vise and hooked my digital fish scales in the top(end) hole and pulled it to the max - 50 lb. No sign of bending or breaking. I am sure I could have pulled it to 80 lbs. This is way beyond the pull required for the hardest change on the steel.
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http://benrom.com/
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
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Bill Ford
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Re: Arcs 'n' degrees

Post by Bill Ford »

Mornin Bent,
Thanks for your reply, your thoughts on this pretty much lines up with mine. My MSA has the 2 hole bellcranks, and I have a couple of things I want to try. The crosshafts are 3/8" round, thus the reason for the design, also the 1/4"thickness on the bottom is for added thread area. The distance between the shaft, and body is approximately 1/4" so I can tweak the BCs for body clearance on my belt sander. I'm thinking of using the 2 holers for compensators.

Excuse if I went a little off topic, I used to be OK with arc/angle, etc, that was pre Nov.1999 (when I retired)
it causes BRAINFREEZE now!!!!!!

Bill
Bill Ford
Steeling For Jesus now
S12,CLR..S12MSA"The Universal" both Ext,E9..misc amps and toys.
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