An Off-The-Wall Idea For Y'all To Chew On

[louckswayne]

Richard, i understand what your saying but i must disagree with some part you said, i'm very aware of a better quality instrument compared to a cheap one of the same model but the fact is...there is a bigger differences between a professional who knows how to get the most out of any instrument than there is differences in tone between a cheap and a pro instrument, in my experience the most differences is that a pro model instrument will have a better finish, more and better hardware , better action and easyer to play , i have a Tele that was made in mexico and a 2000$ made in USA and the tone is not that much different from one to the other...sure the USA model sounds a little better but only guy's like us would be able to tell the difference, i'd be curious to hear the mexican model with the same hardware and pickup that of my USA model!... you can check and listen to Bobbe Seymour and Terry Crisp playing a Carter Starter on Bobbe Seymour website and they make it sound alot better than some pro model in my opinion,
http://www.myvideo.de/watch/6652563/Carter_Starter_Demo

as far as Stradivarius is concern or any top pro instruments as a matter of fact...have some amateur play the thing after a professional did and you'll understand what i'm trying to say cause i've played hundreds of talent shows backing up amateurs for over 30 years and more and i can tell who's got the hands for music and who doesn't, so in my opinion the player plays a bigger part on sound and tone than the instrument itself.

sorry again for hijacking the thread

Pat C

Pat
I agree with you on that one! When you really get that million dollar sound is when you
marry a very good player with a very good and well built guitar! That is were the magic
comes out! One without the other wont cut it!
Just my 2 cents
Wayne

[Georg]

Richard,

It is a question of barely touching the string with the edge of your pick as you pick quickly almost too high to hit it. I "whip" with a wrist-twist movement, stretched fingers and straight picks.
"Whipping" strings well away from the bridge - more like going for chime-positions without actually attempting to chime - will minimize the "pick" sound. Should be just a barely audible "bump" sound even on wound strings. If/when you get a scraping sound the pick likely moves too slowly and/or the pick hits the string too low / too much.

I did find it extremely hard to achieve success while practicing "whipping" on my GFI down in Florida, as that PSG tended to produce a sharp "pick" sound almost no matter what. Didn't focus on this "hit or miss" technique for long enough on that PSG to get a satisfying effect - you may have more success since you are used to playing GFI. The Dekley D10 I bought a few weeks before I went home was more familiar to me, with a higher success-rate as a result. The modded Dekley S10 I have in Norway - with its dampened attack-sound - sounds "just right" when I hit right, which I do maybe half the time while playing and a lot less often while just practicing the technique.

Earlier - before taking my 4-5 year break from playing steel - I polished the pick-edges carefully quite often to get a satisfying picking and whipping sound. Well-polished regularly shaped picks worked well as long as I left them more or less in the angle they come in and didn't bend them around the fingertip the way most players do. For my style of picking straightened picks just worked better overall ... still do...


A picking-variant where I kind of pinch a string between the thumb pick and middle finger pick as I move the picks upwards, can also be used to produce string vibration with no or minimal picking sound. My straight finger picks are ideal for this variant, as the two picks practically lay flat against each other for a brief moment with the string in between.
Since I also use this "pinching" technique to produce just the opposite effect - a bright "pling" sound with minimal string vibration - you have to practice to get a feel of how the two picks interact with the string and each other for the desired effect. The picks do move in or out of sync as I pick upwards, depending on which sound I want, but beyond that I can't describe well what I actually do.


I do find it at least as difficult to describe various picking techniques I use with any degree of accuracy, as I find describing "that tone". That I use somewhat unusually shaped finger picks and hand positions/angles/movements doesn't make it easier to relay the various techniques I use or attempt to use, to others in writing. Easier to just play while aiming for the sound I want, and not give a damn in technique...

[richard37066]

Wayne -

Precisely the point that I attempted to make earlier - but apparently failed.

A good player on an inferior instrument produces an inferior result.

A less than good player on a superb instrument still produces an inferior result.

An expert and accomplished player on a superb instrument produces the best that can be had.

The word "inferior" should not be taken to mean a truly lousy result - something which I should have stated explicitly early on. All things being relative to one another, the word means only that the resultant performance is less than optimum. It is this "less than optimum" which is easily heard by most people with a decent ear for music. Dare I say that the ear for music is an acquired skill predominantly among musicians but still attainable to those few who are coached by a musician and who listen extensively and critically? This sorta narrows the field considerably to we few who stick our noses into this business on a regular basis. However, we've not entertained other facets which might very well skew the outcome of any comparison.

Consider the following:- I play an Ibanez George Benson Model guitar. A jazz guitar if you will. The action is set as low as possible without buzzing and rattling anywhere. My technique is soft and light which tends to produce a "sweeter" tone than most. Now, I'm no hacker when it comes to playing but, were you to put a Strat or Tele in my hands, what would be the result? Pat would most likely be the one to predict the outcome. What would that experiment say about either myself or of the instrument? Probably not very much. We have a very good player on a very good instrument and yet there are the variables which cloud the issue - that of style, genre of the music, a given composition etc.. This seems to say that, in the current context, the perceived differences are irreconcilable. It would appear that we have somewhat of a moot point since we've not set the ground rules at the gitgo. We are all guilty parties for not having done so.

Back to square one?

Richard

[Georg]

Back to square one?

Maybe, but with an ever so slightly clearer positioning/understanding of the individual participants.

[louckswayne]

Richard
Yes i hear ya! What comes to mind with the steel guitar is that all the the top players
of this instrument are playing CARTER, EMMONS, EMI, ZB, etc. etc.! All guitars that are
available and on the market. Regular run of the mill steels as you call them! However
i think some of them are using custom wound pickups and so on to get a (gotta be me)
sound and the rest is being outstanding players! Paul Franklin comes to mind as one
of the most successfull players and he plays of course a Franklin guitar! The Franklin
guitar is not much different to my knowlege than any of the others, construction wise.
I guess my point is, if thats good enough for them, its good enough me!
Just some thoughts!
Most sincerely
Wayne

[richard37066]

Wayne -

There seems to be a general "formula" for the construction of the PSG and why they all seem to look alike and to sound alike. I had hoped to present a new idea for stiffening the body with my initial post and, thus, increasing sustain and/or reducing cabinet drop. Georg, however, pointed out two applications of the idea at some point in the past. So much for being original, right?

Georg's revelation begs a simple question, however. If there were benefits to be had with an integral neck/changer configuration, then why hasn't it been widely adopted? We could guess 'til the cows come home. My first guess is that it takes more time and material to fabricate - increases the cost. My second guess is that most builders view the general method as being "good enough". My last guess is that no one has taken the time to determine if, indeed, it improves performance. I still think that it's a good idea - even if someone beat me to it years ago!

Paul Franklin's "Franklin" is his dad's creation - no slouch when it comes to building an instrument. I would suspect that there is nothing greatly innovative about it other than an attention to detail and personal preferences in the instrument that his famous son would play. I do not use the term "famous" in a derrogatory manner since I greatly admire Paul's playing. He is, indeed, one of a handful of monster players on the current scene.

Richard

[ed packard]

Do you get the feeling that what was done in the past, and it's degree of success or failure (opinions) will go wanting untill a "standard system" of measuring "sustain" and "Timbre vs. time" is instituted? It can be done, but probably won't as the "important" folk in the PSG industry both don't understand the methods and have nothing to gain by it's application. It would be threatening to expect each new build to come with a performance proving document complete with associated graphs and numbers.

[louckswayne]

Wayne -

There seems to be a general "formula" for the construction of the PSG and why they all seem to look alike and to sound alike. I had hoped to present a new idea for stiffening the body with my initial post and, thus, increasing sustain and/or reducing cabinet drop. Georg, however, pointed out two applications of the idea at some point in the past. So much for being original, right?

Georg's revelation begs a simple question, however. If there were benefits to be had with an integral neck/changer configuration, then why hasn't it been widely adopted? We could guess 'til the cows come home. My first guess is that it takes more time and material to fabricate - increases the cost. My second guess is that most builders view the general method as being "good enough". My last guess is that no one has taken the time to determine if, indeed, it improves performance. I still think that it's a good idea - even if someone beat me to it years ago!

Paul Franklin's "Franklin" is his dad's creation - no slouch when it comes to building an instrument. I would suspect that there is nothing greatly innovative about it other than an attention to detail and personal preferences in the instrument that his famous son would play. I do not use the term "famous" in a derrogatory manner since I greatly admire Paul's playing. He is, indeed, one of a handful of monster players on the current scene.

Richard

Richard, i guess untill someone builds a one pc. neck/changer so as to compare we really
will never know if there is any benefit! I personally think that sustain and tone is
related to pu mounting and material used in construction , be it wood or aluminum.
Aluminum ringing with brighter sound and wood more dull and muddy, or as some would
say, more warm!
Just some thoughts
Wayne

[burt]

It's been well known for a long time that a changer attached to an aluminium neck, whilst quite simple to make, and having a pleasant tone, is at the mercy of any temperature changes that can occur, especially under stage lighting, and the tuning of the instrument becomes highly unstable.

That's why the solid neck/changer idea was discontinued, and the separate changer mounting was adopted.

[louckswayne]

Burt
Yes you make a good point here, that a long pc. of aluminum is not good on
a pedal steel! This brings me back to an earlier remark that i believe the steel
guitar has pretty much reached its max in design with everyone just going with
a general formula that works well! I do think that there are ways to improve
what we already have and still make things a bit better! Cabinet drop comes to
mind and also ways to reduce friction! Out of the box ideas have been tried but
they dont last. How about a solid way to mount that changer so as to reduce
cabinet drop?
Just my 2 cents!
Most sincerely
Wayne