An Off-The-Wall Idea For Y'all To Chew On

[ed packard]

Eloquent words chaps!

Not being hooked on "performing" since I was about 20 Yrs (now 78), my interest is not to chase the perfect, or even better instrument, but to run experiments that relate to the street wisdom (myths?) re what does what. Then to give the methodology of the experiment, and results in a quantified way, so that others may build upon it if they choose. To live is to learn or lose.

For a number of years I have had the luxury of being able to afford the time and wherewithal to do this. Several things have fallen out from these actions that seem to have been of use to the PSG world..and working them out has provided me much pleasure.

In my earlier years, I used the same approach as a consultant in the hi tech arena. My interests were, and are in engineering/physics problem solving and device development. Manufacturing and marketing are not on my activity list.

I like the line about PSGs being "reproduced as opposed to designed".

[richard37066]

Wayne -

You must remember that the Emmons LeGrande II that I spoke of was the EXCEPTION to the rule - to my ears and in accordance with my preferences. The "rule" - if you want to call it that - is that most instruments do, indeed, sound at least somewhat alike. This, is spite of different playing styles and instrumentation for amplification. Some folks with exceptional hearing might be able to detect subtle nuances but we average guys need a little help. Every once in awhile, however, you run into an instrument which sets itself into another category by virtue of something indefinable as regards tone. I've listened to several older Emmons PP's in Seymour's shop. These amount to some sort of holy grail to many people. They're all the greatest - as some would have you believe. And yet, the LeGrande put them to shame in the tone department. There was a "something extra" in that guitar not to be found in the deified PP's. And this was a modern, all-pull guitar!

Why, might you ask? I don't have the foggiest, my friend. I do know, however, that the answer to that question plagues my thinking in regards the instrument. It's the driving force behind my insistance for meaningful experimentation in order to root out the answer - if it can be done. And if it can be done, then we'll all be the beneficiaries of someone's diligence in the lab.

Most folks seem to be lemming-like or take the path of least resistance, just follow the crowd and accept the "sameness" attendant to most PSG's. I'm mindful of an old and well-worn Robert Frost quote: - "And I, I took the road less travelled by. And that has made all the difference". I ain't satisfied with the road we're currently on. Are you? Anyone else?

Richard

[richard37066]

Pat -

I must take minor exception to your post.

There's an old saying that "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear". To imply that it's the hands which are responsible for the bulk of produced tone is to forget that the inherent quality of instruments crafted by the likes of Amati, Stradavari and Guarneri would sound very good even in the hands of a novice. The antithesis to this is that a $95 oriental ripoff of a Tele or Strat might be distasteful even in the hands of an accomplished player such as yourself.

The long and short of it is that the innate qualities of the instrument must first be present before laying hands on. The expert and accomplished musician will be able to bring out the best in whatever the given instrument may offer but he certainly cannot coax or wring out that which is not there.

Is this one of those "chicken or the egg" conundrums?

Have I gotten too picky? Hope not.

Forget the "hijack" thing. You're my bud.

Richard

[louckswayne]

Richard
The only way that i can think of would be to take a close look at the Emmons and see
why it has the tone that you mention! I personally dont know of any difference with
the Emmons construction wise, but there very well might be. The tone that i like
can be had useing any modern steel and therefor im quite happy with a run of the
mill guitar! When i get that far along with my build i have a few small mods that i
think might improve the performance a bit but nothing major. IMOP i think the psg.
has pretty much reached its max with everyone going in a big circle and ending up
right back at the same place! Just some thoughts!
Wayne

[richard37066]

Wayne -

You might very well have given birth to a good thought, there.

If one looks at the evolution of the electric guitar, for instance, you will run across Charlie Christain's amplified "boom box", to Gibson's L-5's, Guild's Artist Award model etc., etc., etc. Then there is Les Paul's 4X4 forerunner to the solid body guitar and Leo Fender's innovations in the thin-body Strats and Teles etc. and etc.. What we now have is an entire family of instruments, all of which are categorized as "guitars".

Could all of that be a forerunner to a "family" of PSG's at some point in the future? Will there be several instruments each with its' own physical design and sonic characteristics? And all being called a pedal steel guitar? Don't know but it's intriguing to think about.

Maybe some folks will stop running 'round in circles and branch off tangentially in several directions.

In order for that to come to fruition, however, the PSG would need essentially the same acceptance as the generic guitar.

Now wouldn't THAT be somethin' else!

Richard

[richard37066]

Georg -

Your right, of course. One must at least make an attempt to delineate one's desires and goals before running to the shop and start hacking away at wood and metal.

We seemingly differ as regards a desired tone. I, personally, wish to move away from the "pure and sterile" sound towards that indefinable thing called "character". No one has come up with a list of adequate adjectives to describe tone so I'll just leave it at that. I'll send you a CD of the sound if I manage to capture it.

I've determined, at best, that I'd like to increase the sustain (decay) over my GFI by approximately 50-75%. That'll do me for now.

There'll be NO "cabinet drop". Techniques abound. All I have to do is to implement them.

Those three things represent a "walk before I run" attitude. It may be that I'll have to do a bit of running whether I want to or not.

You have a couple of intriguing ideas that have captured my imagination but will have to wait until (and if) I can realize my immediate goals. I'll be patient.

Ya gonna include some miniature EBows or a Sustaniac for the drones or infinite sustain? Given that you only have two arms and two legs, I have this humorous vision of a touch screen of "nose-activated" functions. Or perhaps a throat mic and some voice control for volume level?(Take a deep breath) If you can sing decently then an array of narrow bandpass audio filters opens up a multitude of possibilities. Change the filter bank for each key so ya don't get confused. The only hassle is that you can't sing harmony with yourself which rules out multiple operations. Turning a flip-flop on and off is one option. If you can change pitch (a half tone?) in a matter of milliseconds then multiple functions might sound simultaneous. Might just do most of that with a good laptop mounted on your guitar as a controller. And the beat goes on with nonsensical ideas. Helpful, aren't I?

I jest - at your expense - but you know that I wish you eminent success.

Richard

Richard

[Pat Comeau]

Richard, i understand what your saying but i must disagree with some part you said, i'm very aware of a better quality instrument compared to a cheap one of the same model but the fact is...there is a bigger differences between a professional who knows how to get the most out of any instrument than there is differences in tone between a cheap and a pro instrument, in my experience the most differences is that a pro model instrument will have a better finish, more and better hardware , better action and easyer to play , i have a Tele that was made in mexico and a 2000$ made in USA and the tone is not that much different from one to the other...sure the USA model sounds a little better but only guy's like us would be able to tell the difference, i'd be curious to hear the mexican model with the same hardware and pickup that of my USA model!... you can check and listen to Bobbe Seymour and Terry Crisp playing a Carter Starter on Bobbe Seymour website and they make it sound alot better than some pro model in my opinion,
http://www.myvideo.de/watch/6652563/Carter_Starter_Demo

as far as Stradivarius is concern or any top pro instruments as a matter of fact...have some amateur play the thing after a professional did and you'll understand what i'm trying to say cause i've played hundreds of talent shows backing up amateurs for over 30 years and more and i can tell who's got the hands for music and who doesn't, so in my opinion the player plays a bigger part on sound and tone than the instrument itself.

sorry again for hijacking the thread

Pat C

[Georg]

We seemingly differ as regards a desired tone. I, personally, wish to move away from the "pure and sterile" sound towards that indefinable thing called "character". No one has come up with a list of adequate adjectives to describe tone so I'll just leave it at that. I'll send you a CD of the sound if I manage to capture it.

OK. We'll sort out our "tone preferences" over time.

Too revisit the importance of details: I lost some tone characteristics in my modded Dekley at Bent's place last year, and it took me a while once I was back in Norway to figure out what had happened and get the "tone" back to where I wanted it. While fixing up the PSG I decided that we should add a reinforcement piece under the keyhead because the original screws were not holding well, and in the process the top-plate/soundboard had been restricted in that area. Had to loosen the screws holding the keyhead a quarter turn or so to free up the soundboard where most of this particular PSG's slight but audible "blooming" effect originates before getting transferred up the neck to the bridge/strings.

I've determined, at best, that I'd like to increase the sustain (decay) over my GFI by approximately 50-75%. That'll do me for now.

Sounds reasonable ... using my own GFI as 100% baseline, I'd say something like 250% usable sustain-time (150% longer than now) might bring that parameter on that PSG up at an acceptable level.

There'll be NO "cabinet drop". Techniques abound. All I have to do is to implement them.

Yes. "Cabinet drop/raise" is unacceptable, and totally unnecessary.

Ya gonna include some miniature EBows or a Sustaniac for the drones or infinite sustain? Given that you only have two arms and two legs, I have this humorous vision of a touch screen of "nose-activated" functions.

Naa, I'll put toe-sensors inside my shoes. Once wired up I think I can control 6 to 8 (never 10) additional functions/parameters that way ... with a bit of practicing.
Always open for other options, as one can't have too many...


More down my (serious) line is to practice more on my whipping technique, where a pick quickly scrapes the surface of a string like a bow to make/keep a string vibrating without making a picking-sound. I find the technique challenging although made easier by the way I shape, wear and generally use my picks. On PSGs with the "right" characteristics a perfect "whip" sounds just right - the tone comes up as from nowhere, while on others I can't make it sound anywhere near acceptable no matter how, where and how well I hit a string.

So, one of my preferences is towards a PSG that responds even better to my playing techniques than my intermediate "modd", as I am not about to change into more standard picking techniques with more regularly shaped picks. Let's just say I prefer "this road less traveled".

[richard37066]

Pat -

I believe that, overall, we've met somewhere in the middle and that's all right.

No need for the red face.

Richard

[richard37066]

Georg -

That "whipping" technique sounds like something that everyone could use. Just tried it myself and had minor success on the higher strings but had a horrible scraping sound on the wound strings.

A brief description of the technique? Might intersperse it with the other things while practicing.

Richard