Changer Both Ends _Pull Release

[Paul Lafountaine]

Thanks again Eldon, I understand from the drawings how the raise and lower parts work, but for the life of me I can't seem to figure out how the pedal rod interacts with the under carriage mechanisms. I guess what I am asking is are you using one pedal to raise and one pedal to lower or does one pedal do both. If it is one pedal doing both I am really confused. If it is one pedal could you show me how and were the pivot points are for the pedal rod for the raise and release. I hope I am making sense here and you can understand what I am asking.

Thanks again

Paul

[burt]

Paul,
I've amended Eldon's first drawing, I think he put the arrow the wrong way round

[Paul Lafountaine]

Thanks Burt, that makes thing a lot clearer.

Paul

[mac639]

Hi Eldon....
Of course..... it's entirely conceivable that you can tune to pitch from the right hand end as well as anywhere else. Might make readjusting the raise tuners a little nasty when changing strings. And on the lowering end. I know it seems to make perfect sense to push rather than pull the lowering finger since the bellcranks can go all the same way. I've never been too happy with that setup though. A couple of aggravations....making tuning adjustments only with the "lowering stop". Unless you make a short guitar the stop isn't going to be near the end to get at it. And I found the push rod tends to want to flex sideways which makes the pedal (Lever) mushy. This is especially true for the longer rods like the RKR or RKL. It's kind of a tradeoff. If you look at a "normal" E9th tuning the way a pull/release guitar was designed in the 60's you'll see that Shot Jackson tried to get the knee levers to go in the direction that avoided changing the direction on the way to the changer. Like the E-Eb was generally on a LKR and the RKR lowered the second string. And raises on the LKL and RKL. I built my first guitar in 1962 copying a D10 round front ShoBud that my steel player had. We thought that guitar was so cool....he had bought it from Loretta Lynn's steel player, no idea who that was. Drove all the way to Nashville from Waterloo, Quebec to get it.
Anyway Eldon, keep at it, you're doin' great!
Mac

[Eldon]

Mac, I appreciate and respect your input.

I'm not at the point of no return here yet so I'll stay the course for now. I have a finger made for each end and I'll be doing a prototype today. I should probably post a pic when done. The finnished guitar will be a C6 - 8 string with 6 pedals. I don't care for the side flex I've seen with knee levers.

Here's my thoughts:

1.) The tuning will be done from the right with cap screws pushing against the bottom of the finger. These caps crews are accessible from the outside and will be unscrewed at string change time;

2.) The pull rod will go through the finger and be adjusted with your "patented" CTC wall anchor;

3.) For the push side I plan on using heavier rods with nylon support bearing along the way to reduce side flex. These fingers have the return springs on them and will be pushed to stop at cap screws adjusted from the outside as well;

4a.) After Paul's question I got out pencil and paper to figure out the string 3 C raise to D with the fourth pedal and C lower to B on the 6th pedal it looks like these are going to act like the straight pulls and raises;

4b.) and 4th string raise A to B using pedals 2 and 4 separately - It looks like the pedal rod will go through each bellcrank with a stop collar on both bellcranks.

Any further comments are more than welcome.

I can post a couple of sketches later if anyone is interested but it's Saturday morning and I have some Cinderella chores to do and besides I need to go shopping to the dump.

[Dave-M]

Hi Eldon:
Regarding your second drawing where you push against the return spring on the finger, you may get rod flex. Consider the benefits of moving the return spring to the bellcrank, or to the internal end of the rod. Then if you put the (threaded) collar (or tuning nut) on the other side of the finger and use it to tune the open string, the string would pull the finger to the lower stop by merely RELEASING the rod (by stretching the return spring with a pedal or lever pull), thereby eliminating any rod flexing.

This would also allow you to raise the same finger with another rod, or even with the open tuned rod, attached to another bellcrank.

However, this lowering technique is different from Mac's double ender method. It would permit a raise-dominant pull overcoming a lower, such as string 6 going straight from a lowered F# to A (using B pedal) with no G or G# noticeable, and without letting go of the lowering lever. This effect is useful when you want to go to F# to A and back to F# immediately ... Hold the F# lever and just push down and up on B-pedal.

The G lower could be done on the other end by Mac's method and another rod and pedal.

[Eldon]

Dave, Thanks for your post. Considering I'm still in the heavy thinking/planning process what you're saying is well work trying.

I've been puzzling the flex issue a bit and so far all I've come up with is trying a 3/16 push rod possibly combined with a nylon support block to ease or prevent it. But I'm definitely going to prototype your idea (once I get my head around what you said)

[Eldon]

Burt, good eye thanks for amending the first drawing. That's what I ment.