Now that I have my mill installed and working I can start to build some skills before my first full PSG build. Extra countershaft, bellcrank and LKV first I think.
But looking ahead, I can't work out how you fix the top and sides together. I mean, surely not just with glue?? I did wonder if the sides were glued and screwed to the top - the screw heads could be inset under the surface and covered by the trim strips for example. But I just don't know. How is it done, guys?
Life's too short to spoil some nice maple just finding out that "that way doesn't work".
Bluesteel, there are several ways but the one used the most is glue and screws. Counter bore a deep enough hole for the screw head in the apron, then a clearance hole through the apron. Then you line up the aprons on the deck. Put the screws in, tap them to make a location mark on deck, then drill a stopped hole in deck. I leave 1/8" of wood for safety. Then, when holes and screws are lined up, put a wee dab of carpenters glue on the edge of the apron...just a WEE bit, squeeze-out is a waste - and messy. Then put screws in and tighten. I like to start in the middle and work outward to both sides in case there should be a small wow in the apron board.
http://benrom.com/
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
An added thought to Bent's remark about "squeeze-out". This stuff must be removed in its' entirety or the wood will not take any sort of stain. Slopping everything up with a dripping wet sponge only makes a mess, spreads the glue around and raises the grain of the wood. LOTS of sanding after that. I have always placed two strips of masking tape along the sides of the glue joint. No more than 1/16" seperating them. Press or roll the tape flat and into intimate contact with the wood along the joint before applying glue and mating the surfaces. Any subsequent squeeze out can then be removed without smearing the stuff all over the place. Remove the residual glue at the joint with a small, damp sponge or rag WITHOUT removing the tape. When you're satisfied that the glue at the joint has been removed, THEN remove the tape. Any raising of the grain will occur in a thin line along the joint, itself. There will be minimal residue of the tape adhesive. A little sanding then completes the task. This simple technique takes much of the guesswork out of how much glue to apply. A little too much and you're covered. Then, again, if you use a good glue brush or a well-guided finger to apply a THIN layer of glue then your concerns are further diminished. To quote an old phrase, "What, Me worry?".
As an aside:- I am partial to an aliphatic resin wood glue. Modern chemistry and strength at its' best. "Gorilla Glue" is, indeed, stronger than a line of sixteen-penny nails but it has the nasty habit of foaming while it cures. The only way to keep up with the foaming is to swab the joint with alcohol every 5 minutes. It's either that or having to use a chisel when it sets up hard. What a hassle! Remember, too, that the use of most modern wood glues produces a joint which is stronger than the surrounding wood. In my view, any screws that are used only serve as clamps until the glue sets up.
The tape strips work just fine. Just another trick to make life a little easier.
Richard, the tape trick is a clever one and I will endorse it 100%.
As to wood glue vs Gorilla. I will stick to wood glue. Why? Because it is "good enough" to coin a Shot Jackson phrase. I have tried many a time..on cut-offs.
The glue is good and dried. I attempt to break the joint apart...it ALWAYS breaks in the wood, not in the glue joint. In other words, it is stronger than the wood around it.
http://benrom.com/
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
I must reiterate that I DO NOT endorse the use of Gorilla Glue in the making of PSG cabinets! (Or much of anything else, for that matter.) Yes, it sticks like death, itself, but the attendant hassles are not worth any perceived advantage. Advantage? You said it yourself: - if a particular glue joint is stronger than the surrounding wood then that is all that is necessary. Most modern wood glues fill that requirement. I've run into novices who take the "more is better" approach to using glue and the squeeze out slobbers all over the place. They fail to realize that, when two pieces are clamped together, the amount of glue remaining is but a very thin line between the pieces. Given this, I asked them the question: - Why use more than is absolutely necessary? A thin film on both of the surfaces to be mated is quite adequate. Just "wetting" the surfaces does the trick.
Once again, this is a bit of knowledge which makes life a lot easier. Trust the facts and do not give in to intuition which dictates the use of a bigger hammer! It's counterproductive where we are concerned.
Ok Bent, Richard, many thanks. Just to clarify: we are glueing and screwing the aprons (sides) to the deck (top) and the screws go in horizontally?
Then we can hide the screw heads behind the trim strips.
I too had observed in the past that the glued joint was stronger than the wood itself. I guess what was in my mind is that breaking the joint can indeed break the surrounding wood. I think that's why I had it in mind to put screws in as well. And they do clamp it together while it sets.
I just never did see any change in the grain on the deck near the edges to show that the sides butt against the top. I guess that's down to good selection of the timber.
I may be reading your above post incorrectly but the best explanation for your question is to look at Bent's post "Blackbird-finished".
Fortuitously, Bent has used two different colored woods. From an angle at the side you can see that the walnut apron is situated BELOW the maple top. In another picture - from the bottom - you can see where Bent has inserted plugs to close the screw holes. To put it into words, again, Bent has drilled long holes in the apron (see his post, above, for the explanation), screwed and glued the apron into the top and then covered up the holes. His use of the inlays hides the joint where the two dissimilar colored woods mate. My opinion: - in doing it this way, he gives one the visual impact of a top which flows to the edge of the instrument as opposed to a top which would appear to be set into the cabinet. Much neater. First rate.
Richard, you smooth talker
Seriously, my friend, thanks for the positive remarks. I have been able to do 2 experiments with joining aprons/deck. The first one you have seen with the screws. This works great when insetting the side rails where you only have 3/8 to 1/4" thickness to work with. If I chose to go with a full apron thickness (by not insetting the side rails) I would just as soon have used the biscuit joiner method. This makes for easier line-up of the parts and eliminates the need for screws altogether and thereby not having to look at plugged screw holes.
Not everybody go for the bolted-together aluminum frame with the inset rails but choose to use the wood as the full structure. Here I recommend biscuit joining for sure. It makes for a super strong joint that is easy to line up while the glue is wet. These swelled-in-place biscuits creates a plywood effect(cris-crossed wood fibers) and is actually stronger than the wood itself. For those who favour a possible difference in wood sound as opposed to metal.
http://benrom.com/
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
I've used biscuits (NASTY machine) for many a moon but the hangup that I see with it - as you've indicated above - is when there is a slight bow to the rail. The biscuits are a loose fit and it would be a booger-bear to attempt to straighten out a rail with the aforementioned bow in it. If, however, everything is on the money, then 4 or 5 biscuits and a couple of clamps will make short work out of attaching the rails to the top. It's always nice to have a couple of alternative methods for doing something.
From *underneath*, now I see it. Of course - duhhh. Well, the change in the grain where the dowels go in is in the last place anyone would be able to see. Thanks, guys. All is now crystal clear.
