Hi Guys
Just me with more questions! Is there a good plan of attack to rodding a new
guitar? What hole in the bellcrank to what hole in the changer finger ect.
Is there any good chart to go by? Would be greatfull for any help/advice
here.
Thanks
Wayne
Question about rodding!!
Re: Question about rodding!!
Hi Wayne,
Good question to get answers to....and mine might not be dead on or thorough enough. Everyone with an opinion chime in please.
As a basic answer, I will say there are no set strategies, or a "one size fits all" type of solution.
This is because everyone's changer is a bit different in leverage points and distances. What has worked for me is to REALLY take my time and balance everything as well as I can. At this stage this means a 2 day job at this point, for a single 10.
Since this is a one-off for you, do your rodding with this in mind:
- Get the right hardness(softness) of every given pedal/lever operating it's string, combined with what seems to you to be the correct length of travel needed to achieve the needed raise or lower.
- In some instances the above rules can be thrown out the window as for example on those levers/pedals that HAVE to have a long finger travel to acheive the correct change. And example here would be lowering the 3rd string a whole tone which to me is the most difficult change. Here, I needed to use the bell crank hole farthest from the cross shaft, with the shortest lower hole in the lower finger. Other tougher balancing acts would be the 4th string lower, which needs to be balanced with its partner, the 8 string, who doesn't require quite the same travel length as the 4th. At the same time you will strive for making both strings start and end lowering at the same time.
-2nd and 9th strings lower are also quite tricky, especially if you have the half- stop.
All thse are only examples and you have to do it your own way.
One thing I have found beneficial, is to start with the cross shaft closest to the changer(shortest rods) and work your way to the right(with the guitar upside down)
Also, mark down your rodding sequence as you go along. You are bound to have to take it apart in order to make adjustments and the notes will come in handy.
Also, strive to make straight runs...as dead on as possible. If need be, it is "allowed" to bend rods to make them go around interfering bell cranks make this bend AT the interfering bell crank. Try to avoid having rods touch each other...annoying sounds will appear if they touch, such as rubbing against each other and actually vibrating while playing.
Take your time and good luck!
Good question to get answers to....and mine might not be dead on or thorough enough. Everyone with an opinion chime in please.
As a basic answer, I will say there are no set strategies, or a "one size fits all" type of solution.
This is because everyone's changer is a bit different in leverage points and distances. What has worked for me is to REALLY take my time and balance everything as well as I can. At this stage this means a 2 day job at this point, for a single 10.
Since this is a one-off for you, do your rodding with this in mind:
- Get the right hardness(softness) of every given pedal/lever operating it's string, combined with what seems to you to be the correct length of travel needed to achieve the needed raise or lower.
- In some instances the above rules can be thrown out the window as for example on those levers/pedals that HAVE to have a long finger travel to acheive the correct change. And example here would be lowering the 3rd string a whole tone which to me is the most difficult change. Here, I needed to use the bell crank hole farthest from the cross shaft, with the shortest lower hole in the lower finger. Other tougher balancing acts would be the 4th string lower, which needs to be balanced with its partner, the 8 string, who doesn't require quite the same travel length as the 4th. At the same time you will strive for making both strings start and end lowering at the same time.
-2nd and 9th strings lower are also quite tricky, especially if you have the half- stop.
All thse are only examples and you have to do it your own way.
One thing I have found beneficial, is to start with the cross shaft closest to the changer(shortest rods) and work your way to the right(with the guitar upside down)
Also, mark down your rodding sequence as you go along. You are bound to have to take it apart in order to make adjustments and the notes will come in handy.
Also, strive to make straight runs...as dead on as possible. If need be, it is "allowed" to bend rods to make them go around interfering bell cranks make this bend AT the interfering bell crank. Try to avoid having rods touch each other...annoying sounds will appear if they touch, such as rubbing against each other and actually vibrating while playing.
Take your time and good luck!
http://benrom.com/
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
Re: Question about rodding!!
Wayne, some good stuff there from Bent. Also, you might find some useful info here:
http://www.steelguitar.com/rodding.html
My link goes to the rodding page, but I think that you will want to poke around the entire site.
HTH.
http://www.steelguitar.com/rodding.html
My link goes to the rodding page, but I think that you will want to poke around the entire site.
HTH.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
-
louckswayne
- Posts: 203
- Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:54 pm
Re: Question about rodding!!
Hi BentBent wrote:Hi Wayne,
Good question to get answers to....and mine might not be dead on or thorough enough. Everyone with an opinion chime in please.
As a basic answer, I will say there are no set strategies, or a "one size fits all" type of solution.
This is because everyone's changer is a bit different in leverage points and distances. What has worked for me is to REALLY take my time and balance everything as well as I can. At this stage this means a 2 day job at this point, for a single 10.
Since this is a one-off for you, do your rodding with this in mind:
- Get the right hardness(softness) of every given pedal/lever operating it's string, combined with what seems to you to be the correct length of travel needed to achieve the needed raise or lower.
- In some instances the above rules can be thrown out the window as for example on those levers/pedals that HAVE to have a long finger travel to acheive the correct change. And example here would be lowering the 3rd string a whole tone which to me is the most difficult change. Here, I needed to use the bell crank hole farthest from the cross shaft, with the shortest lower hole in the lower finger. Other tougher balancing acts would be the 4th string lower, which needs to be balanced with its partner, the 8 string, who doesn't require quite the same travel length as the 4th. At the same time you will strive for making both strings start and end lowering at the same time.
-2nd and 9th strings lower are also quite tricky, especially if you have the half- stop.
All thse are only examples and you have to do it your own way.
One thing I have found beneficial, is to start with the cross shaft closest to the changer(shortest rods) and work your way to the right(with the guitar upside down)
Also, mark down your rodding sequence as you go along. You are bound to have to take it apart in order to make adjustments and the notes will come in handy.
Also, strive to make straight runs...as dead on as possible. If need be, it is "allowed" to bend rods to make them go around interfering bell cranks make this bend AT the interfering bell crank. Try to avoid having rods touch each other...annoying sounds will appear if they touch, such as rubbing against each other and actually vibrating while playing.
Take your time and good luck!
I understand what your saying and it all makes great sense! Every guitar will be a bit
different but this gives me a method to shoot for! Thanks very much for the help!
Wayne
-
richard37066
- Posts: 517
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:44 am
- Location: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA
Re: Question about rodding!!
Hey, Wayne!
Excellent posts by Bent and Michaelm. Lots of info in Michaelm's link. Take heed.
I am now in the throes of refurbing an old (old!) 12-stringer guitar so I will be in the same boat as you in a couple of months. There's lots of work and some personal alterations to be done in the interim. I'll post pics and info when it's complete.
One of my concerns - which has not been mentioned - is that of ergonomics. I refer to the notion that it would be quite disconcerting to activate a particular change with only a half inch of pedal movement while another would clunk on the floor after an inch and a half of travel! I, personally, feel most "comfortable" with a pedal travel of approximately 1 inch and I will begin my rodding by setting the cross-rod "stop" screws for that approximate travel. Prior to that, however, I will have determined how far off of the floor the pedals should sit. I have a short foot and have found it quite uncomfortable to really flex my ankle in order to get my forefoot on the pedals when they are set too high. These things fall within the category of "personal preference" (where have you heard that from ME, before!) and are particular to the person who's gonna be doing the playing. If you take this route, then there will be no surprises when everything is buttoned up and ready for play. Granted, the pedal height can be adjusted AFTER the rodding is complete but, if you want to check out the "action" as you progress, then your foot will experience not only the height and preferred travel but, also, the amount of pressure required to make the change. Travel OK? Fine. Pressure too much? Make a change in the rodding to ease the pain. A caveat in the following paragraph. Thinking as I go.
Having said all of the above, I'll refer to one of Bent's statements about the mechanical advantage - leverage/force - being different among the different designs. That "1" inch that I mentioned is not magic but, most likely, mythical. As the necessary adjustments to the rodding are made to closely satisfy your ergonomic requirements, you will most certainly find that certain pulls - when made easier - will cause an increase in pedal travel. Not to worry. The change will usually be minimal and your foot will still feel a travel of approximately 1 inch - or whatever you choose for your optimum. Ergonomically, you should be a happy camper. In essence, what you're saying is that "I'm playing this thing as it's being assembled. Does everything feel right? Can I live with the settings, as is, or should I be making a change now, before all of the other hardware gets in the way?"
You'll recall another thread in which I insisted that all rod movement should occur tangential to the arc through which ,say, a bellcrank or crossrod actuating lever moves. Keep this in mind. Life will become a little easier. Not always entirely possible, but something to strive towards.
I've not seen ANY guitar where everything is infinitely adjustable. We're stuck with discrete distances between the holes in the bellcranks and changer fingers which may, or may not, work in total concert with the changer design itself. Small surprises are in store but, if you take Bent's advice and begin with the changes closest to the changer, itself, then there will be an ongoing educational experience which will make things much easier as the rodding procedure progresses. Just as importantly, recall Bent having said that it takes him a couple of DAYS to complete the rodding process to his satisfaction. Put on a pot of coffee, stock up the fridge with your favorite drinks, take frequent breaks and long lunches in order to keep your head from becoming befuddled.
I WILL take not only my own advice, but that of others, when the time comes for me to finish my project. Take THAT to the bank.
Best of luck.
Richard
Excellent posts by Bent and Michaelm. Lots of info in Michaelm's link. Take heed.
I am now in the throes of refurbing an old (old!) 12-stringer guitar so I will be in the same boat as you in a couple of months. There's lots of work and some personal alterations to be done in the interim. I'll post pics and info when it's complete.
One of my concerns - which has not been mentioned - is that of ergonomics. I refer to the notion that it would be quite disconcerting to activate a particular change with only a half inch of pedal movement while another would clunk on the floor after an inch and a half of travel! I, personally, feel most "comfortable" with a pedal travel of approximately 1 inch and I will begin my rodding by setting the cross-rod "stop" screws for that approximate travel. Prior to that, however, I will have determined how far off of the floor the pedals should sit. I have a short foot and have found it quite uncomfortable to really flex my ankle in order to get my forefoot on the pedals when they are set too high. These things fall within the category of "personal preference" (where have you heard that from ME, before!) and are particular to the person who's gonna be doing the playing. If you take this route, then there will be no surprises when everything is buttoned up and ready for play. Granted, the pedal height can be adjusted AFTER the rodding is complete but, if you want to check out the "action" as you progress, then your foot will experience not only the height and preferred travel but, also, the amount of pressure required to make the change. Travel OK? Fine. Pressure too much? Make a change in the rodding to ease the pain. A caveat in the following paragraph. Thinking as I go.
Having said all of the above, I'll refer to one of Bent's statements about the mechanical advantage - leverage/force - being different among the different designs. That "1" inch that I mentioned is not magic but, most likely, mythical. As the necessary adjustments to the rodding are made to closely satisfy your ergonomic requirements, you will most certainly find that certain pulls - when made easier - will cause an increase in pedal travel. Not to worry. The change will usually be minimal and your foot will still feel a travel of approximately 1 inch - or whatever you choose for your optimum. Ergonomically, you should be a happy camper. In essence, what you're saying is that "I'm playing this thing as it's being assembled. Does everything feel right? Can I live with the settings, as is, or should I be making a change now, before all of the other hardware gets in the way?"
You'll recall another thread in which I insisted that all rod movement should occur tangential to the arc through which ,say, a bellcrank or crossrod actuating lever moves. Keep this in mind. Life will become a little easier. Not always entirely possible, but something to strive towards.
I've not seen ANY guitar where everything is infinitely adjustable. We're stuck with discrete distances between the holes in the bellcranks and changer fingers which may, or may not, work in total concert with the changer design itself. Small surprises are in store but, if you take Bent's advice and begin with the changes closest to the changer, itself, then there will be an ongoing educational experience which will make things much easier as the rodding procedure progresses. Just as importantly, recall Bent having said that it takes him a couple of DAYS to complete the rodding process to his satisfaction. Put on a pot of coffee, stock up the fridge with your favorite drinks, take frequent breaks and long lunches in order to keep your head from becoming befuddled.
I WILL take not only my own advice, but that of others, when the time comes for me to finish my project. Take THAT to the bank.
Best of luck.
Richard
-
louckswayne
- Posts: 203
- Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:54 pm
Re: Question about rodding!!
Hi Richard
Thanks for your insite into this. You make some good points and i agree that 1"
pedal travel is probably good! I am thinking of Tommy White or Doug Jernigan,
both of whom can fly with speed and too much travel on the pedals would
not help to play the fast stuff! My main concern with my guitar is to just get in the
ball park with fine adjustments still possible. The nice part about building are own
guitars is that now we dont have to just settle on someone elses ideas! Also to
Michael, i am downloading that chart on rodding! Thanks for this info.
Wayne
Thanks for your insite into this. You make some good points and i agree that 1"
pedal travel is probably good! I am thinking of Tommy White or Doug Jernigan,
both of whom can fly with speed and too much travel on the pedals would
not help to play the fast stuff! My main concern with my guitar is to just get in the
ball park with fine adjustments still possible. The nice part about building are own
guitars is that now we dont have to just settle on someone elses ideas! Also to
Michael, i am downloading that chart on rodding! Thanks for this info.
Wayne