Emmons P/P
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Fred Wright
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:21 pm
- Location: Georgetown, KY
Emmons P/P
A very naive question, but has anyone investigated the possibility of building a 70's Emmons P/P and duplicating the guitar with its awesome sound? I'm sure this would be very complicated considering the plans, diagrams, etc., are not readily available. However, the challenge is exactly what I'm looking for. Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated because this ole guy needs something to keep him really busy. Thanks, Fred
Re: Emmons P/P
Fred, a Mr. Papic in Serbia is already doing that. It is built under the name of Promat - an exact copy of the PP
There's noting that says nobody else can do it though..Lord knows there are enough all pull copies!
It would be an interesting venture for some brave soul, despite the PP's limitations.
There's noting that says nobody else can do it though..Lord knows there are enough all pull copies!
It would be an interesting venture for some brave soul, despite the PP's limitations.
http://benrom.com/
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
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Fred Wright
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:21 pm
- Location: Georgetown, KY
Re: Emmons P/P
Bent,
Very interesting. However, I'm surprised that no one in the US has tried to do the same except for patent infringement. Also, I guess builders like to be creative, rather than copy, which is understandable. But as you know, I've already gone that route and now I would like to try and "copy" for the reasons I mentioned - and not for resale. Oh well, maybe someone can help me with accurate dimensions, wood type, parts or anything else necessary to begin the project. Thanks, Fred
Very interesting. However, I'm surprised that no one in the US has tried to do the same except for patent infringement. Also, I guess builders like to be creative, rather than copy, which is understandable. But as you know, I've already gone that route and now I would like to try and "copy" for the reasons I mentioned - and not for resale. Oh well, maybe someone can help me with accurate dimensions, wood type, parts or anything else necessary to begin the project. Thanks, Fred
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richard37066
- Posts: 517
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:44 am
- Location: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA
Re: Emmons P/P
Fred -
Just a couple of random thoughts regarding your quest.
You must first recognize that not all Emmons P/P's are created equal. Some are extraordinary, some not so, and with a bunch falling somewhere in between. Just ask the likes of Bobbe Seymour, whose experience with steels is probably not paralleled in our world. Further, my good friend, Buck Reid, tells me that his dad has perhaps the best sounding and playing Emmons P/P ever built - Buck's evaluation. His dad refuses to give up the instrument - not even to his own son, who is acknowledged as a monster player of the steel guitar! What is it that sets this one instrument aside - in Buck's estimation - above all others? No one knows.
I doubt that the Lashley's would give up a set of working drawings to anyone - and for any price. That's a major impediment to progress.
Bent is correct in regards the Promat. However, I can inject a bit of cynicism into that venture. If the Promat is an "exact" copy of the P/P then why aren't thousands of players storming the doors in order to lay their hands on one? If the Promat is truly "exact" then should not the "best" Emmons sound reside therein? The name "Promat" seems to be relegated to the back of the shelf - giving precedence to the Emmons, Mullens, Franklin, Jackson, Zumsted, etc., etc., etc.. My own view is that the steel guitar community is quite jaded and enamored with "name recognition" - most noticeably with the likes of the Emmons and ShoBud. The unfounded view is that if an instrument carries either of those names then it MUST sound fantastic! Not so. Not so. Not so. Yet many buy the "name" solely to say "I play a .............. and the tone is fantastic". Not so, again. Bobbe Seymour has told me, on more than one occasion, that he has seen and played a couple of ShoBuds which were miles apart in the tone department - in spite of the fact that they had been built side by side and in the same week! There's a lesson to be gleaned from that account.
In regards your dilemma, it would appear that the prudent course of action would be to either give up on the idea altogether or to find that exceptional Emmons, empty your wallet, tear it all apart, make precision measurements of EVERYTHING and create your own working engineering drawings. Even so, you'd have to identify the type and temper of all of the metals used and, worse of all, to duplicate the wood, formica, glues etc., used in the cabinet. Are you up to the task of the precision and minutae involved?
You, no doubt, have the time to devote to this undertaking. I am suspecting that the cash outlay would be prohibitive although the degree of satisfaction in having created the final product might well be worth it - to you. Should you decide to forge ahead, regardless, then I wish you well. We, here on the Forum, would be most interested as to the progress and pitfalls that you encounter. Please keep us informed.
Richard
Just a couple of random thoughts regarding your quest.
You must first recognize that not all Emmons P/P's are created equal. Some are extraordinary, some not so, and with a bunch falling somewhere in between. Just ask the likes of Bobbe Seymour, whose experience with steels is probably not paralleled in our world. Further, my good friend, Buck Reid, tells me that his dad has perhaps the best sounding and playing Emmons P/P ever built - Buck's evaluation. His dad refuses to give up the instrument - not even to his own son, who is acknowledged as a monster player of the steel guitar! What is it that sets this one instrument aside - in Buck's estimation - above all others? No one knows.
I doubt that the Lashley's would give up a set of working drawings to anyone - and for any price. That's a major impediment to progress.
Bent is correct in regards the Promat. However, I can inject a bit of cynicism into that venture. If the Promat is an "exact" copy of the P/P then why aren't thousands of players storming the doors in order to lay their hands on one? If the Promat is truly "exact" then should not the "best" Emmons sound reside therein? The name "Promat" seems to be relegated to the back of the shelf - giving precedence to the Emmons, Mullens, Franklin, Jackson, Zumsted, etc., etc., etc.. My own view is that the steel guitar community is quite jaded and enamored with "name recognition" - most noticeably with the likes of the Emmons and ShoBud. The unfounded view is that if an instrument carries either of those names then it MUST sound fantastic! Not so. Not so. Not so. Yet many buy the "name" solely to say "I play a .............. and the tone is fantastic". Not so, again. Bobbe Seymour has told me, on more than one occasion, that he has seen and played a couple of ShoBuds which were miles apart in the tone department - in spite of the fact that they had been built side by side and in the same week! There's a lesson to be gleaned from that account.
In regards your dilemma, it would appear that the prudent course of action would be to either give up on the idea altogether or to find that exceptional Emmons, empty your wallet, tear it all apart, make precision measurements of EVERYTHING and create your own working engineering drawings. Even so, you'd have to identify the type and temper of all of the metals used and, worse of all, to duplicate the wood, formica, glues etc., used in the cabinet. Are you up to the task of the precision and minutae involved?
You, no doubt, have the time to devote to this undertaking. I am suspecting that the cash outlay would be prohibitive although the degree of satisfaction in having created the final product might well be worth it - to you. Should you decide to forge ahead, regardless, then I wish you well. We, here on the Forum, would be most interested as to the progress and pitfalls that you encounter. Please keep us informed.
Richard
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MikeHutchison
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:26 pm
Re: Emmons P/P
I made my own push-pull...
Not quite from scratch, although it almost felt like it.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 355fbb12d1
I will humbly answer any questions, although neither my skills as a machinist nor as a guitarist are up to the standards I see around here. Long time lurker, first time poster... hi everybody!
This was an MSA Sidekick. Pull-Release changer. There was just enough room in between the one piece fingers go fabricate and insert emmons-style lower fingers.
Not quite from scratch, although it almost felt like it.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 355fbb12d1
I will humbly answer any questions, although neither my skills as a machinist nor as a guitarist are up to the standards I see around here. Long time lurker, first time poster... hi everybody!
This was an MSA Sidekick. Pull-Release changer. There was just enough room in between the one piece fingers go fabricate and insert emmons-style lower fingers.
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Fred Wright
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:21 pm
- Location: Georgetown, KY
Re: Emmons P/P
Richard,
Thank you very much for your insightful, knowledgeable, and honest answer. I guess I had those suspicions all the time, but wanted them confirmed by someone much more expert on the subject that me. Maybe someday I'll find a late 60's or early 70's Emmons that I can copy or afford. One is never too old to hope, although I'm getting close.
Blessings Fred
Mike,
Thanks for your contribution, and what an interesting project you worked on. Believe me, I can use all the help I can get. So, if I pursue this or any project I'll definitely keep you in mind. Again, thanks. Fred.
Thank you very much for your insightful, knowledgeable, and honest answer. I guess I had those suspicions all the time, but wanted them confirmed by someone much more expert on the subject that me. Maybe someday I'll find a late 60's or early 70's Emmons that I can copy or afford. One is never too old to hope, although I'm getting close.
Blessings Fred Mike,
Thanks for your contribution, and what an interesting project you worked on. Believe me, I can use all the help I can get. So, if I pursue this or any project I'll definitely keep you in mind. Again, thanks. Fred.
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richard37066
- Posts: 517
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:44 am
- Location: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA
Re: Emmons P/P
Fred -
Your attitude is highly commendable. Almost a "never-say-die" one. I would never go so far as to say "don't do it" but, rather, keep the idea alive in your head and, should the opportunity present itself, forge ahead with a definitive plan in mind and make the dream a reality. My only caution would be that you not expect a miracle and produce the best-sounding Emmons clone ever but to be satisfied with something which approximates the ideal and is wholly satisfying. That, in itself, is your reward for the sweat, tears and hard work involved. Who knows? - your build just might blow everything else out of the water!
Ah, but that's the stuff of which dreams are made. Dream well, my friend.
Richard
Your attitude is highly commendable. Almost a "never-say-die" one. I would never go so far as to say "don't do it" but, rather, keep the idea alive in your head and, should the opportunity present itself, forge ahead with a definitive plan in mind and make the dream a reality. My only caution would be that you not expect a miracle and produce the best-sounding Emmons clone ever but to be satisfied with something which approximates the ideal and is wholly satisfying. That, in itself, is your reward for the sweat, tears and hard work involved. Who knows? - your build just might blow everything else out of the water!
Ah, but that's the stuff of which dreams are made. Dream well, my friend.
Richard
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richard37066
- Posts: 517
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:44 am
- Location: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA
Re: Emmons P/P
Hi, Mike -
First timer? Don't be a stranger. Ain't no one 'round here that bites like a rabid dog. We 'uns is quite friendly.
But you knew that, didn't you?
Richard
First timer? Don't be a stranger. Ain't no one 'round here that bites like a rabid dog. We 'uns is quite friendly.
But you knew that, didn't you?
Richard
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Fred Wright
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:21 pm
- Location: Georgetown, KY
Re: Emmons P/P
Again, Richard, I really appreciate your counsel. Fred
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MikeHutchison
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:26 pm
Re: Emmons P/P
Thanks for the friendly welcome. I don't suppose I have a lot to contribute but it's fun seeing what you guys can do. At some point I'd like to scratch build a guitar for myself, but I've got a lot to learn and a lot more tools to acquire!