Steel Project #4

[Storm Rosson]

George, my S/P build has the 2 end screws of the changer support/housing that are machine screws that thread directly into the support ledge on the endplate. That is the only point(s) of direct attachment to the frame element....Stormy

[Bent]

Thank you. Once you have finished it I'd like to see pictures of how the "partly supported" is achieved.
Um...how many more pictures do we need? Check my photobucket links, my youtube and so on.
To spell it out, here is what I mean by "partly": Rear end of keyhead has #8 machine screws coming up through the deck support ledge on the endplate and screw into the threaded holes in endplate. The end plate has also threaded holes about an inch further in.

The rear bolts on the changer pillow blocks, The ones that we will see the heads of when everything is put together(much the same as on your Dekley), are bolts that go through from above, through the wood deck and through an extension of the endplate support ledge and tightened up with lock nuts on said ledge.
The front of the pillow blocks are bolted through block, through changer housing and through wood and fastened with nuts.
I guess this is the "partly", then.
Since I like to convince myself that one method is superior over the other (which is screws through the woodwork only) I chose to do it this way. If it works, fine. If I experience too much of a detune through temp fluctuations or a negative change in tone for instance, anybody can simply take the screws out of the keyhead and insert them into the other set of holes which will be pre-drilled through the deck. On the changer end you simply take the bolts out, unscrew the ledge extension and re-insert the bolts through the deck only.

Georg, you must remember that your assumptions based on your guitars is only what applies to your comfort level when it comes to cab drop.

No assumptions baked into my original question. I only wanted to know how the various elements of your construction are supposed to "play" together to reach your end goals. That I have different goals is not the point here.

Brain fart there..I meant to say assertions.

Well, there you have how my elements play.

Also, it did seem to matter that your different goals were made to be a point here. I.E.: "and those of my PSGs that are built with a frame more or less like shown for the BenRom has more bodydrop than I can accept - they are unplayable." and "it only supports the body and inner mechanics - like it seems to do on the BenRom."
More body drop than you can accept - yes. But maybe not to the majority of pros.
"Unplayable" to you might mean quite playable to a pro.

[Jeffrey]

Although I am a hobbyist, my aim is to develop a guitar as if I were to build it for a pro who was going to use it in the studio (for quietness, tone and record-ability) and traverse the globe on an airplane (weight).

Bent, two things... 1) what separates a hobbyist from a professional is payment. Considering both that you have sold guitars AND 2) the professional level/eye-for-detail of your work, seems to me you are no hobbyist in ANY sense of the word. As true a professional as any that I've seen. Keep 'em coming!

Jeffrey

[Bent]

Jeffrey, Thanks for your kind assessment of me. I guess maybe I should have said " a hobbyist who strives to be a pro"?
There are a couple of things here that separates me from pro level in my sense of the word: I am not very good at coming up with brand new ideas all on my own. I usually need someone to drop a hint or suggestion or make a drawing.
Also, I am simply lousy at drawing plans. I am more of a trial and error type of guy. My heap of scrap aluminum will attest to that
Both of those issues are unlikely to see an improvement due to my age (64)
In the meantime, this building thing is so much fun; nothing will stop me as long as I can still move.

Thanks again for your kind words. It sure warms the heart!

[Georg]

Hmmm, since it apparently is not possible for me to ask questions without also having to present and defend "why" all the time, it seems to be rather pointless for me to present questions, comments or views on anything.

Good luck with your builds and all else, all of you.

[azureskys]

Bent , the only thing that seperates a pro from an hobbiest is money , being a pro isnt based on anything except getting paid for what you do, it dosent matter if your drawings are lousy or good or if you play good or bad , if you get paid then your a pro, Age dosent make any difference not really if you look at what you have done 2 years ago and look at what your doing now Im sure you have noticed your improvement your learning more and more everyday so dont let that age thing get to you or in your way heck im soon to be 62 and im learning everyday myself and enjoying it , that old saying you cant teach an old dog new tricks ha is a crock of crap, when we stop learning then we die. Trial and error is good, thats how we learn. Russ

[Bent]

Georg, relax. Everybody here shares everything and that's the way it is. When you state a question in such a way that I feel I have to defend my position, I do so. That is my right as well as it is your right to ask any question, or make any statement in any way you feel like. You just need to be prepared to be answered in the same way as what you asked the question/made the statement..
No need to pout by indicating you have to defend yourself, etc etc.
We are one big happy family here. Let's keep it that way.
Peace!

Got lumber today. Got a body to build!

[Dave L]

Georg-Bent-Richard or anyone else,

I have much appreciated the discussions and thoughts on body drop and possible causes/fixes of this detuning phenomenon. With out those post I would have known nothing about it or even been looking for it in the first place.
Bent, I am guessing that you also have some concern or at lest wish to minimize it as much as possible with 0 being the optimum, else you would not have run the side rails into the end plates for extra structural integrity to the aprons. ???

So my thoughts as I design my first build (In my head thus far, as it changes the more I read of some of the potential pit falls).
The first was to add some truss rods that could be tighten similar to a six string guitar neck.
Then it went to adding a center support parallel to the side rails.
Then to making a continuous frame (like Bent currently has) with a continuous center strut.

Then to my current thinking, a continuous frame (like Bents) w/a 1/4" plate the width of the frame and long enough to support fully the changer and another similar 1/4" plate at the key head to support fully the key head. I think this would better support the aprons and the plates on top would add rigidity and help counter act torsional movement and better support the two ends. This would add a bit of weight but I don't think an appreciable amount.

any thoughts, comment, discussion greatly appreciated.
Best Regards,
Dave
p.s. my hope is to build a D10

[Storm Rosson]

I'm pretty much onboard with your ideas Dave, the integral endo-skeleton with a center bearing/cross shaft support bolted solidly to the endplates as well as both apron rails are definitely my plan also. The addition of flat rigid Al plates at the ends, and I assume , bolting through to the keyhead/changer is also an interesting thought. Keep posting so we can try and gauge any noticible gains that may come out of this idea......Stormy......rock on Dave

[Georg]

Bent, I am very relaxed ... maybe too relaxed at times

My question was expressed this way...

Question: will the endoskeleton in the BenRom, and the "super pro", hold and stabilize the changer and keyhead?

...simply because I wanted to know. Whether the answer came out as "yes" or "no" or "partly" or whatever, doesn't mean it would be "right", "wrong", "better" or "worse" to me. I simply asked because I (still) can't read the answer in your pictures and description prior to your response to my question. Thus, nothing more to discuss now that I have received an answer.

My response to Burt with a contradicting observation, was targeted at Burt and has nothing to do with your construction. It should therefore not sidetrack things and trigger further arguments on your thread.

Now I have no more questions or comments related to your build.