Crazy project #1: variable-pitch pullrods for JI tuned PSG.

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Georg
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Re: Crazy project #1: variable-pitch pullrods for JI tuned PSG.

Post by Georg »

To illustrate the madness a little: as rough sketch of what the lever mechanism behind "movable holes" for a variable-pitch bellcrank axle may look like...
Image
It will replace a regular bellcrank axle, and the only difference is that the axle is shorter than the others and that it can rock back and forth a little based on what's pushing at either end of the long lever.
Exact shape and bending away from the cabinet-side depends on how many such variable-pitch bellcrank axles are needed in a PSG and how close they are to each other. 1-3 such axles will be needed in PSGs with JI tuning over pretty standard copedents.

I want to put flanges on those "cams" so the levers can't slip off, and I haven't drawn the spring-loading on lever or "cams" necessary to handle pushes from "cams" on both sides simultaneously.

Again: anyone see problems with the idea and the basic mechanics here..?
Bent
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Re: Crazy project #1: variable-pitch pullrods for JI tuned PSG.

Post by Bent »

Georg, I am not laughing and yes, it is possible to construct anything as long as I have it explained to me fully. That's my problem, see, I don't understand enough from a few sketches. You standing there with me looking over my shoulder...sure we can cobble something together. IF I ONLY COULD GET MY MILL which is slow in arriving. So at the moment I don;t know enough about your ideas to be able to say whether there is a problem with them or not. The only thing I question with this movable axle is: will the sliding in the oblong hole make for undue wear? Will a person have to use harder steel for example? Steel=more weight.
I am scared of building a heavy steel..that is going back in time... :shock:
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21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
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Re: Crazy project #1: variable-pitch pullrods for JI tuned PSG.

Post by Bent »

"Lloyd Green is, IMO, a genius in selecting and playing the notes/pitches that sounds right for whatever he wants to express, and to avoid those that don't fit. Just look at his copedent ... it is reduced to a point where most pitch-conflicts are avoided. "

There is something wrong with that copedent the way it is written. Are you sure this is correct?On the Emmons pedal setup, "A" ped is #1 so you tilt your foot to the left to get the A ped and then tilt your knee to the right to get the E-F change. Darn near humanly impossible. More usual is having the E-f Change on LKL or, not as common any more, RKL
If that copedent is right then I am wrong and Lloyd is not only a musical and intellectual genius, but also somewhat of a contortionist.

Sure, I'll leave it for now. But questions like the ones I asked, wants to be asked and answered in order to weigh all alternatives and decide on the benefits of a hugely revamped system.
Because I always ask myself this question: Will it be sought after by the masses? Will it be salable?
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21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
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Georg
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Re: Crazy project #1: variable-pitch pullrods for JI tuned PSG.

Post by Georg »

Aluminum will probably wear down too quickly on those "slides" even though the pressure is minimal, but gluing thin layers of hardened-steel on edges and surfaces where there's a chance of excess wear won't add many grams.

I too want a light PSG ... can we agree that 15kg for an Sd10 with 3+5 and JI-tunable pedals is OK?

A few method for reducing total weight:
• Some parts can be "honeycombed" by drilling patterns of holes in them without reducing their strength. The lever on my drawing is a good candidate for such treatment, and the regular plates holding the axle bushings and parts on your steels are too.
• Pipes are more rigid than solid axles, but lighter, so since I prefer round bellcrank axles I contemplate using thick-walled pipes, with inserted nylon tips to reduce friction and wear.

Take my old Dekley for instance: the front and back that are covered with mica can be "honeycombed" without losing any strength or "tone", provided the right pattern of small holes is chosen. Put the mica back on, and only some weight will be gone.
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Re: Crazy project #1: variable-pitch pullrods for JI tuned PSG.

Post by Georg »

I can't guarantee the absolute correctness of Lloyd's copedent, but I think it is good.

I know from reading a few articles, that he had (and probably has) his "E" levers "backwards". A result of putting the pedal/lever for the next invented change in the next available position because he didn't want to move the pedals/levers he already had. Looks awkward to us, but once one gets used to something...

Guess it's no worse than that one of our Norwegian professional steelers told me in earnest a long time ago that it would be impossible for me to pick-block properly with straight picks. I really couldn't, and still can't, see the problem...
Because I always ask myself this question: Will it be sought after by the masses? Will it be salable?
If something I'm involved in gets sought after by the masses right away, then I tend to consider it a complete failure and want out ;)
Quality sells, but not to the masses. Build something to the highest standards and in limited quantities and find ways to present it to the right people, and there will always be buyers.
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Re: Crazy project #1: variable-pitch pullrods for JI tuned PSG.

Post by Georg »

To make use of as "normal" parts and solutions as possible, I've worked out an alternative way of moving/offsetting a bellcrank axle for tuning of pedal-pitch. Here's a rudimentary sketch...
Image
Since I only want to move the axle over "C" in a 2 millimeter range, I think a push/pull rod will do.

Since there's a limit to how many pedal-changes that can be operated together with "C" and create "corny" chords if engaged "C" stays in fixed pitch, only a limited number of pedals need to push or pull it to a different pitch.

I described the "sliding rod" in another thread, so I haven't included it in this sketch. May need it to control pitch for certain pedal combinations.

Action can be reversed by using one of the solutions for making right-going knee-levers pull the right way, so I have left out those too. May need such "reversers" if pitch for "C" has to be lowered instead of raised in certain pedal combinations.

Since the basic (only this pedal activated) pitch for a pedal should be the same as on a non-compensated pedal, I think it will be enough to be able to either raise or lower the pitch along with other pedals - not both raise and lower. So the axle will rest in one extreme-position when activated alone, and the rest is a matter of sorting out and mapping which pedals that need to be pitched either way.

The hollow adjustment screw can be an adjusting screw for brake wire on bicycles - or something of that nature. I have used a "brake screw" to couple "B" string pulls for pedal "A" and "C" onto one pullrod on my steel for 22 years, and it works perfectly.

To reduce the load from the short lever on axle "C" onto other pedals it should pitch along with, I think a spring at the end of the pull/push rod will do. That spring will also be used to assure that if the "C" needs to be pitched down, its resting position will remain stable in "high pitch" when activated alone.


1 to 2 millimeter offset doesn't sound like much, but I think it will provide more than 25 cent pitch adjustment if/when needed. From what I have measured on my own steel that should be enough to tune out all but the strangest "unusable" pedal combinations and make them "perfectly usable."

It is of course important that a tiny amount of extra freeplay is provided on pullrods coming from the variable pitch bellcranks, so neutral - no-pedal - tuning of those strings doesn't get messed up.

A sensitive player may be able to feel that an activated pedal/lever gets pitch-adjusted when another pedal gets pushed into a combination, but apart from that the slight adjustments needed shouldn't disturb mechanically. It is only the actual chords that will sound purer.


Again, please twist, break and crush the logic and practicality in the above, so I can improve the idea as much as possible before actually designing and building anything.
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Re: Crazy project #1: variable-pitch pullrods for JI tuned PSG.

Post by Allan »

Georg, I don't know if this will do what you want but have a look anyhow:
sleeve.jpg
sleeve.jpg (20.67 KiB) Viewed 1026 times
The drawing shows an axle with a sleeve on it. The axle and the sleeve each have a bellcrank, a pull rod and a stop. The axle has been drilled and fitted with a compression pin.
When 'Pull rod 1'/'Bellcrank 1' is activated it rotates the 'Sleeve' which turns the 'Axle' by bearing on the 'Compression pin'. Movement is limited by 'Stop 1'.
When 'Pull rod 2'/'Bellcrank 2' is activated it rotates the 'Axle'. Movement in this case is limited by 'Stop 2'.
The sleeve and the axle would have their own 'return springs' which would allow the axle to turn without causing movement in the sleeve.
A separate crank on the axle would be used to connect to the changer fingers as required.
'Pull rod 1' and 'Pull rod 2' can be attached to a pedal or a lever in the normal way as required.
The purpose of the system is to allow small differences in the pull to be implemented within a single changer finger.
The system associated with the sleeve can be implemented more than once on a single axle.
Please note that the drawing is for illustration/discussion only and is not to any scale.

I think I said that I was NOT going to get involved with this thread! HUH! :roll:

Regards, Allan.....
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Re: Crazy project #1: variable-pitch pullrods for JI tuned PSG.

Post by Georg »

Interesting. Thanks Allan. Might find some uses for something like that. Not sure if/how it can solve the actual problem though, so allow me to describe/clarify the problem once more with a real example on an E9 tuned PSG.

• when pedal "A" is activated alone, string 5 should be raised to C# with a pitch of 275Hz (played open, on fret 0).
• when a lever lowers string 6 a whole note from G# to F#, the with "A" pedal raised string 5 to C# should ideally be pitched up to 278Hz for a perfect JI chord.
• when the lever that lowers string 6 a whole note is activated, and pedal "B" raising string 6 a half note is also activated, string 6 gets tuned (via a split) to G. Then the with "A" pedal raised string 5 to C# should ideally be pitched down to 275Hz again for a perfect JI chord.

So, although the with "A" pedal raised string 5 to C# only need to "switch" between 2 pitches - 275 and 278Hz, the "pitching up" must be engaged by one bellcrank axle and negated by another axle.


In my example both controller axles are nearer to the changer than the axle that is being controlled - requiring a push control. However, there's no telling which order and left and/or right the controller axles are relative to the controlled axle for some of the other 2-pitch variations, or if the 2-pitch switching will have to be up or down in frequency.

As a consequence I must design for a kind of push/pull control of engaging and negating 2-pitch switching of any engaged change. Makes it more difficult to design a "mutual pedal-pitching" solution for improved JI tuning, which - to me - means it becomes more interesting to design one that actually works.
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Re: Crazy project #1: variable-pitch pullrods for JI tuned PSG.

Post by Georg »

I have gone through this basic idea a few times...
Image
...and the only weakness I have found is one of "leverage", or rather "lack of leverage".

I need to increase the leverage the controlling bellcranks A, B and D has on the controlled C through the pull/push rod. Otherwise this pitch-switching will rely too much on spring-strength and -balance, which I don't think is a good idea.

The horizontal pitch-control rod can be allowed, and adjusted, to move at least as far as a normal pullrod for half-tone raise or lower, but the controlled bellcrank axle only has to move a couple of millimeter at most. Anyone got a good design-idea for something like a scissor-shaped "leverage-amplifier" I can use to pull/push bellcrank axle C left or right with?
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Re: Crazy project #1: variable-pitch pullrods for JI tuned PSG.

Post by Allan »

Would this work as an alternative to a scissor design?

1) Thread the pull rod below axle 'C'
2) Cut gears on a radius around the axle center (axle 'C')

What you would have created would be a rack and pinion there. By dropping/raising the position of axle 'C', thus changing the length of the lever arm, the mechanical advantage is adjusted to suit. As an aside, a degree of pre-tuning is available by rotating the rod since we are talking about a thread as opposed to simply cutting or attaching a 'normal' rack piece.

More practically you could slip a threaded sleeve over the rod and lock it into place with a set screw. The size of the sleeve (diameter) could be selected to set the distance from the axle to control the mechanical advantage.

Allan.....
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Keep yer tools sharp! That way you can use more of your strength guiding them AWAY from your body rather than forcing the cut!!!
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