Body sounds

[Georg]

Man, will we have loads to talk about when I see you in a couple of months!

Me thinks so too

For now, and FWIW, I don't argue against your use of wood. I just presented my basic views here since we're not alone on this forum.
To clarify for others: in my constructions the body plays a much smaller role with regard to tone and sustain than in yours, since I place the steelguitar that holds the strings and create the tone on top of a body with mechanics and legs, while you - and most others - use the body with mechanics and legs as main part of the steelguitar.

For the record: I can design and build for zero audible body-drop on any PSG body - wood, aluminum, heavy or light - even quite flexible bodies will do, because the body itself doesn't hold the string tension or the changer in my designs. However, that's an entirely different matter, and one that I only state here because you mentioned the body-drop issue. Now, let us focus on body sounds as they relate to your designs.


What I'm trying to figure out, get to the bottom of, is how you - and most other PSG builders - judge, and maybe also tune, the sound qualities of the bodies you design and build, since those bodies are such vital parts of your finished instruments.

I want to understand what you mean by "pleasing vibrating sensation" in a body. Do you for instance want strong resonances in certain areas and less in others, or are there other specific things/factors you are listening for? Is it possible for you to expand on something as complex as body sound, and how one type of body sound will lead to improved sound characteristics in the finished instrument compared to another type of body sound?

So, yes, I believe that the sound board and other components all work together to make this effect that reverberates back thru the guitar and via the strings give us this after-effect in thru the pickup and into the amp. Why else do some of the builders make sure that f ex the raise finger hits the wood body on a raise? Why does the emmons PP always have the finger in contact with the body?

On your two questions above, I do have an answer: the contact points acts as sonic couplings, which when built right can both amplify and divide frequency - both ways. In some other instruments such contact points are known as "rattlers", and well-working, well-tuned "rattlers" have an audible effect known as "blooming" on an instrument's overall tone character. A really interesting effect that you should study, play with, and, if possible, try to integrate in your designs. I have quite a bit of "blooming" in my steel, but the "rattling" effect is not created at the changer-end.

I heard a difference in sound from walnut to maple. That's not to say that one is better than the other. But the difference is distinct enough for me to want to make these two guitars to completion if for nothing else than settle my curiosity.

I think it is important that you notice which type of body-wood and -construction had which specific sound in isolation, so you can use the experience next time you choose wood and construction methods. As you build better and better sounding steels, having a clear memory about what their individual parts sounded like in isolation will likely make it easier to choose the best materials and design/build even better BenRom steels in the future.

Yes, I think you're on the right track, but I am still curious about how/why you judge particular sound characteristics in the body or other individual parts to mean something positive or something negative for the final builds ... or, if you're mostly guessing and hoping

[Bent]

Steve, oh no. If negativisim showed thru in my writing, you can blame it solely on my (not so fancy) style of writing.
Even if the big boys say so and I say that should be good enough for me, did not mean to say that there is no room for discussion.
Your comments were taken as positive believe me.

We are all here to discuss and learn from the discussions.

When I said I don't have the ear to agree or disagree, that was in reference to my own ear that I don't trust at all times. I do have some hearing loss and have constant ringing in my ears. Annoying to say the least, when one is interested in such a fine thing as steel guitar tone!

Back to the discussion at hand. I guess what the big boys mean is that there should be direct contact by the actual finger upon the woodwork. I say this because all steels sure have a rather good indirect contact: from the string, onto the finger, onto the changer axle, onto the pillow block and onto the woodwork. Plus down thru the raise/lower bars and on thru the pull rods that are connected to the body in some shape or form. Also, the back of the r/l bars are held against a bar or stop which is connected to the end plate, which is connected to the body.
Do they mean to say that it has to be direct contact because those subtle vibrations get lost thru other means?

[Bent]

Georg, Yep I knew this would be a tough one
Right off - let me say that I know very little. This building venture is for me a pleasing experiment that I have done 3 times now and some pleasing results have happened. As well, some less pleasing results have occurred.
You said:
I want to understand what you mean by "pleasing vibrating sensation" in a body. Do you for instance want strong resonances in certain areas and less in others, or are there other specific things/factors you are listening for? Is it possible for you to expand on something as complex as body sound, and how one type of body sound will lead to improved sound characteristics in the finished instrument compared to another type of body sound?

What I meant by a pleasing vibrating sensation was when I tapped the body, I did actually feel a little bit of a vibration, like when you touch to a vibrating device and you feel that tickle. This was pleasing, as opposed to the other body, where the same action only produced what I can best describe as a thud and no more.
The first body proved to me to have life. The second more dead, although not completely. WHY I took this to be pleasing is because I figure when ther eis a positive movement in the wood, that means said movement will travel all the way thru the body, down the legs and back up to the pickup. This is how we have read about what the masters do...they strum across the strings, then grab a leg to check for vibrations. My first guitar has more of this 'leg vibration" than the second one(Red). To me, the first one sounds better than Red. That's all, nothing fancy or well-thought out equations; just following what the builders before me has done. And I do like much of the sound that emanates from those old steels.

You said:
On your two questions above, I do have an answer: the contact points acts as sonic couplings, which when built right can both amplify and divide frequency - both ways. In some other instruments such contact points are known as "rattlers", and well-working, well-tuned "rattlers" have an audible effect known as "blooming" on an instrument's overall tone character. A really interesting effect that you should study, play with, and, if possible, try to integrate in your designs. I have quite a bit of "blooming" in my steel, but the "rattling" effect is not created at the changer-end.

My two "questions" were actually statements I guess. Because this is exactly what I intend to experiment with. I believe that this rattling as you call it should start as soon as possible, in other words at the changer end. This is important I think, so as to give this vibrating effect a fighting chance to let it make it's effect before it dies out a bit - at the other end of the body.

Of course no tuning has been done as yet by me. The only tuning is in the wood itself I guess you can say. I make the judgment when I tap and get, to me, a pleasing sound and vibration. Nothing scientific going on here Georg.
I also do not believe that there was too much scientific study going in to those old ShoBuds and Bigsbys either. I think Emmons lucked out building a PP. I would hesitate to think that he thought that counter top material (formica) would make great tone in a steel. No, as we read, he covered his guitars with that stuff to avoid cigarette burns Some of the design was obviously brilliant; the direct contact with finger-on-wood is one. I think that the aluminum finger pivoting directly on a hard steel changer shaft is another positive feature. So some of these features I might build in to my steels as well.

I also want to work with torques...how much to tighten up screws in key points. I have a feeling that this is important.
Main thing is, I wanna have fun doing this I'm tired so this will have to do till next time...

[Georg]

Bent, yes, this "body sounds" subject is a tough one. Interesting though

A few more thoughts and observations from this side of the pond...

About the sometimes very good sound in old steel guitars:

Many good old wooden steels tend to get better, sound better, as the dead wood decays, settles and hardens and thereby changes how it distributes vibrations. This is one of the reasons why many like the sound of some of the old steels, and try to emulate it in new instruments.

This is also one of the reasons why I don't like to rely on wood all that much, as I don't plan to sit around and wait for the dead wood to settle "just right" in the hope that an instrument will sound better one day in the distant future. I want it to sound its best the moment it's built or after a very short shakedown period - a few weeks at most.

We can of course use old, well-stored and naturally decayed wood in PSGs, if we can find some. Artificial drying-out processes will also help speeding up things, but the natural decay and settling process in wood will continue on its own and in its own good time no matter what we precondition the wood. With good choosing, handling and a bit of luck, wood used in a PSG will only get better for its intended purpose.

My "mostly aluminum" designs will of course be pretty stable from day one, and only change with unwanted wear and tear. 1-2 millimeter of wood laminated on visible surfaces for "good look" or whatever, will have an immediate effect on sound but won't make much of a difference over time.



Thoughts, observations and experiments related to the "P/P / Hybrid" tone:

If you understand the basic concepts of various "buzzing bridges (link)" constructions, you should also be able to control the rattling/buzzing effect of changer fingers/scissors forced against (but not secured to) the body or end-plate. In a PSG you don't want the direct audible effect, but instead the amplifying effect it has on certain vibration patterns - body vibration tend to be amplified and sync up with string vibration, resulting in improved sustain and a different tone compared with non-contacting fingers/scissors.

In a well-tuned P/P or Hybrid mechanism you get a number of small, slightly flexible, "hammers" that hammer (vibrates) eagerly away at the body or end-plate in sync with the strings. This hammering - what I call "rattling" - creates lots of positive vibration in the body, and this body vibration gets transferred back up through the "hammers" causing more positive vibration in the strings.

Note that contacting fingers/scissors push on up-stroke and release on down-stroke - up/down-stroke being the vibration in the strings. These push/release movements are so small that it is easy to overlook this hammer effect, but since it is as rapid as the vibrating string the effect is high, and when the "push/release" balance is tuned well against a responsive body the effect increases immensely and helps in keeping the strings vibrating (sustain) in addition to enhancing tone and harmonic content.
That's the short version ... the full version is easier to observe and understand than to explain.

I have no idea if this "rattling/buzzing" behavior in P/P and Hybrid constructions were intended or not, but I can imagine that builders have probably observed the overall effect while experimenting, liked it and built on it.

Took me a couple of years and lots of testing to figure out this "rattling/buzzing" behavior/effect back around 1990, but I chose not to keep this immediate and quite pleasing effect permanently in my steel because it was a bit too immediate for my liking. Turning my changer into a kind of a "Hybrid" would also prevent me from introducing some of the other improvements I was looking into, like the zero body-drop solid neck/changer. Instead I chose the "charged mass" route based on the solid and floating neck/changer, where the effect of positive vibrations is delayed but also quite a bit stronger and sub-harmonic oriented.

My modified Dekley with its "charged mass" does indeed have a weaker and what some might call "a more sterile attack/picking sound" when compared to most other PSGs. However, that somewhat weak/sterile attack is followed by a very solid, blooming and lasting (sustained) tone with plenty of "Dekley character" for me to play on. We all have our preferences...

[Bent]

Georg,
Maybe we are making it too tough. Heck, all I wanted was to share what I observed while tapping the wood. I feel this is getting too scientific. Are we putting too much thought and emphasis in the wood body and have the steel make the tone for us, and not enough thought and emphasis on the hands of the player? No matter what we say about the steel itself; the way the player uses his hands on the strings is still the main thing for good tone.

Good proof of this is Dave Seddon's guitar, the one that I built for him. There is nothing special about this instrument. Nothing at all. I thought it sounde dok when I set it up and tried a few tunes. But ok is far from super tone.
Dave's last youtube tune, Waves of the Danube, has been commented on quite favorably by one player in Britain, Basil Henriques,who has some 50 years experience playing all types of steel. He commented, totally un-solicited, that "you have great tone in this new guitar, Dave". Of course I was flattered and very pleased to hear this remark from a pro. But I also know that this nothing- special steel has a very run of the mill sound. I know this because I have an identical one sitting here in the shop. So I have no illusions. Many things could stand improvement sound wise in this machine and still, Basil says it has good tone.
Let's not kid ourselves. That good tone comes from Dave's own two hands. Those hands are beyond experimenting..he has found his style and tone. He is able to put his soul into his playing..the little special touches is what makes Basil say what he said.

I still say that good tone is 80% in the player's hands. Don't want to start a discussion on that one just wanted to shed light on what I think since we are on the subject.

VERY small nuances are maybe in the wood. Could be that my decaying hearing is not able to pick those out any more. They are that subtle.
Decaying wood you say? Do you mean as in dying wood? It has been thoroughly broken down already in the kiln drying process. All the moisture except for about 6% has been taken out. The pores are void of any life seeing as they are all closed up. We put some 10 coats of finish on all sides, so no air gets to it. How then, after X years can this wood come alive again? Has this been proven somehow or is it in our imagination?. I am not arguing against what's said about an old violin..a master player can detect something. But here we have some thin wood compared to the wood of the steel body. And this wood that you say might not have that much to do with the tone after all (seeing as you want to build one basically out of metal)

Yes, so it gets tough.. as tough as we wish to make it for ourselves it seems.

Methinks if I build according to the tried methods; use the same type of woods as was in the old guitars, that this will be close enough to the authentic pedal steel sound. It is pleasing for me to hear differences in maple and walnut, especially so because one of the masters mentioned this combination and thought it had a special and good tone.

I am sure that he buzzing/rattling is more prevalent in acoustic instruments.
I still believe that for us to take full advantage of this subtle buzz, or vibration, in a pedal steel we need to get the thing rattling away through the whole body.

Then all we need is a great player to play the thing and there's the tone and super sound

Along the way, if I can minimize or eliminate cabinet drop in these wood monsters well, good for me.. I know...your ear can stand very little of that. But the vast majority of ears says 0 to 3 c cab drop is fine. And lets face it...we build for the majority.

Oh yes...we all have our preferences Be boring if we didn't.

[Georg]

Maybe we are making it too tough. Heck, all I wanted was to share what I observed while tapping the wood. I feel this is getting too scientific.

Bent, we all want you to share, and others on this forum probably have plenty more to share. Just write: "Georg, stay low" or something, and I'll do just that
I'm not on some kind of a mission, so I don't have to push my thoughts and preferences here, or anywhere, if they are found to be disturbing or disruptive in any way. Peace and silence may not lead to much, but at least it is peaceful. I love the sound of silence


Now, observing how everything - including the humble steelguitar - follows the laws of nature, is interesting. Trying to sort out which laws of nature that plays which roles in each case, just makes it more interesting - to me. Maybe my analyzing mind push things across the lines into science at times, maybe it isn't - I certainly don't think it does. Does it really matter as long as at least one of us is interested in getting closer to "what's really going on here"..?
I'm sure there are plenty more curious minds around, but maybe they're not all as open about it as I am...

It takes me from a few minutes up to a few days, to figure out the overall sound-range and other qualities a stringed instrument has or hasn't, before I can think of playing music on it. By then I instinctively know how to play what I consider to be good instruments to get what I want out of them, and can start fine-tuning my playing techniques for each one. That's the "tone is in the hands" part of the equation, which I find most interesting. So, no disagreement there.

The not so good instruments can then be left out, as I am not particularly interested in demonstrating for myself or others that I can get reasonably good sounds out of average instruments - I leave that to those who find that sort of exercises interesting.

The thing is though, that I don't have some kind of single (or narrow minded) measure for what I consider "good instruments", as nearly all instruments may work/sound really well in given musical scenarios, and even "really bad" instruments may be chosen over "better" ones in certain scenarios. Thus, I don't disagree with anyone who likes a particular instrument even if I don't, as they may be into - play in - just the right musical scenarios for it.


Lastly, and just for the record: I don't care even the slightest what a steelguitar is supposed to sound like or how it should be played, which is a statement that may bring me on collision course with a lot of players and other friends of this instrument. I have over the years observed that not a single steelguitar music lover disagrees with me when I present the steelguitar performances I like the most from my very small archive of recorded music though, so I don't think my preferences regarding the sounds and styles are that far off after all.
I discriminate harder than most it seems, or at least I tend to say what I think when there's something I like or dislike or have additional thoughts and opinions about. That's also true when it comes to my own sounds, which is the main reason why I don't release any...

[Bent]

...any way we see it, I think this thread is developing into a really interesting one. You and I have sure rehashed many aspects of what is discussed in these venues. We get wrapped up in our veiwpoints and that's great. We are working toward a common goal. And we are nowhere finished.

We have had our say on this topic for now. I think it is time for us to give the soap box to the rest of the membership. Because when only two discuss a matter, after a while it starts reminding me of the hamster in the wheel going round and round and not getting too far

Let's leave this one open to the rest of the people on here. I am sure they have views they would love to put across to the rest of us.

Therefor I say...next?

[Bill Ford]

It's called "chasing the tone monster"(which,by the way can seldom be captured) Case in point, why do all Emmons PP guitars not have "that sound"? I have read that it's the changer, the wood, the way the formica is applied,(a heat with pressure process) D10 PP have a large cutout in the middle of the body,maybe???

FWIW, when a builder,Zum,etc, have established a standard for their body's, they do not change for a long time.

Also the "tone in the hands" statement, I agree with whole heartedly, another case in point..The statement made to me by a highly regarded pro player about a friend of mine, that whatever he played sounded the same, whether it was one he built, or one he bought. BTW he did the engineering final rodding, and tweaking on my CLR, I did 95% or more of the machine work , all the finish and cabinet.

I am not challenging anything in this topic, I just know what sounds good to my (ringing) ears, a very interesting topic indeed !!!!!!!

Bent, The youtube posting of your PSG sounds really good to me.

Bill

[Bent]

Bill, thanks for the kind words. It is great to hear that from another builder.
Like you, I am convinced that tone is in the hands..not 100% mind you but my uneducated guess is somewhere around 80 or 90% in the hands.
To sort of "prove" this statement I can use my own build as an example--the one you all have heard on Youtube, played by Dave Seddon (Shakey).
Like I have told several people; there is nothing special about this guitar, no big innovations for sound enhancement. As a matter of fact, there are things on that guitar that are sound inhibitors, for example nylon bushings and spacers. Such details will get improved once I get my mill.
But put this less-than-perfect guitar in the hands of a player of Dave's abilities and he coaxes great sounds out of it anyway. By the way, what you have heard so far from Dave, he plays through a home made amp. He does want to get a NV 112 as he thinks this will be the perfect mate for the BenRom.

That is not to say that I discount new things. It is very exciting and educational to learn a bit about Georg's exciting and well thought out ideas and I am very proud to be a part of this new and radical development within the pedal steel building.

[Eldon]

Violins have a sound post. Off the wall it might be possible to "change (perhaps dampen some frequencies) the sound" by installing an adjustment mechanism to the apron than can tighten and loosen against the underside of the guitar top. It could be made so that it can be moved along and across the sound board to experiment with different positions. One more way to chase that sound monster around???