Changer scissors stop at the "stop plate" for neutral, and since all my PSGs have that stop plate attached to different parts of the body / end plate construction and behave differently when it comes to detuning tendency, I'd like some input on where, and how, it is best to attach the stop plate for optimal stability.
The only PSG I have that exhibit no audible detuning, is my modified Dekley that has the stop plate attached (only) to front and back apron - my own modification.
My goal for "shopping around" for ideas in the builders forum, is that I aim to put "tunable * " stop plates for each string in my own - home made - construction, and am looking for the most stable points to "tune" them from.
* "tunable" in the sense that their exact stop-position can be adjusted +/- up to a couple of millimeters via pull-rods, just like all other changes on an all-pull changer.
regards
Georg
Where / how do you attach the lower-return stop plate?
Re: Where / how do you attach the lower-return stop plate?
Georg, if your aim is to put tuneable lower return stop for each string, I would suggest (for now) that you use individual stop screws instead of the conventional plate. This would be the same idea as split tuning screws that you find on most modern steels. Could be hard to do on a retrofit, but much easier on a new build.
http://benrom.com/
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
-
Georg
- Posts: 457
- Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:38 am
- Location: Mandal, VA, Norway & Weeki Wachee, FL, USA
- Contact:
Re: Where / how do you attach the lower-return stop plate?
Bent, tunable splits is not what I have in mind -- I use rods for splits anyway. Rather I want variable/playable/tunable neutral for each string, which CAN be used to tune out body-drop but which I mainly will use to microtune individual strings for JI-tuning across all chords and changes.
As both the raise and lower scissor rest against the same stop plate in neutral, it makes sense (to me at least) to add changer-effect to individual strings in neutral via the stop plate -- hook individual stoppers up via additional pull-release or all-pull scissor(s) mounted upside-down for maximum leverage with minimal (+/- 20 cents or so) change.
Question is: where do you attach a regular stop plate to the cabinet for optimal stability, as the point that guarantee optimal stability is the starting point for the individual stoppers in my construction.
As both the raise and lower scissor rest against the same stop plate in neutral, it makes sense (to me at least) to add changer-effect to individual strings in neutral via the stop plate -- hook individual stoppers up via additional pull-release or all-pull scissor(s) mounted upside-down for maximum leverage with minimal (+/- 20 cents or so) change.
Question is: where do you attach a regular stop plate to the cabinet for optimal stability, as the point that guarantee optimal stability is the starting point for the individual stoppers in my construction.
Re: Where / how do you attach the lower-return stop plate?
Georg, I just mentioned your adjustable stop plate in comparison to tuneable split screws. Using screws instead of a stop plate would do the same thing as the plate, only this would then be adjustable for each individual string. Same idea as splits only in a different location. I never did suggest you install split screws, which are in a different location anyway.
You mentioned wanting an adjustment of 1 to 2 mm I think, on EACH individual string as I understood it. Making the stop plate adjustable is easy enough but that wouldn't make it possible for any adjust would be adjusted ahead or back.
As for me, I mill the stop plate into the end plate...cut out a box affair with the lower side of the box being the stop plate. This is located right under the lowest hole in the lowering bar, leaving enough room for getting the tuning wrench on the tuning nut. OR mill out more of the lower side so that I would have just enough aluminum to attach a steel plate to
You mentioned wanting an adjustment of 1 to 2 mm I think, on EACH individual string as I understood it. Making the stop plate adjustable is easy enough but that wouldn't make it possible for any adjust would be adjusted ahead or back.
As for me, I mill the stop plate into the end plate...cut out a box affair with the lower side of the box being the stop plate. This is located right under the lowest hole in the lowering bar, leaving enough room for getting the tuning wrench on the tuning nut. OR mill out more of the lower side so that I would have just enough aluminum to attach a steel plate to
http://benrom.com/
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
-
Georg
- Posts: 457
- Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:38 am
- Location: Mandal, VA, Norway & Weeki Wachee, FL, USA
- Contact:
Re: Where / how do you attach the lower-return stop plate?
Bent, thanks for that piece of information. So the stop plate is part of or attached to the end plate on the PSGs you build. From what I have seen that's how it is done on most PSGs -- also on my MSA and GFI -- which makes perfect sense in production. Not so on my Dekleys originally, where they are attached to the top plate via the changer blocks.
Have been thinking
... and may end up anchoring my tunable/playable stoppers further in from the changer, in the frame, allowing them to slide back and forth those 1 to 2 millimeter I need to move them via scissors and pull-rods for my "on-the-fly JI-tuning". I have more space in my keyhead changer than there is around a bridge changer, so should be able to find room for one extra set of scissors anchored below the regular changer, with pull-rods and nylon nuts above the raisers.
Slowly getting the design together, in between house renovation, farm work and traveling.
Have been thinking
... and may end up anchoring my tunable/playable stoppers further in from the changer, in the frame, allowing them to slide back and forth those 1 to 2 millimeter I need to move them via scissors and pull-rods for my "on-the-fly JI-tuning". I have more space in my keyhead changer than there is around a bridge changer, so should be able to find room for one extra set of scissors anchored below the regular changer, with pull-rods and nylon nuts above the raisers. Slowly getting the design together, in between house renovation, farm work and traveling.
-
richard37066
- Posts: 517
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:44 am
- Location: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA
Re: Where / how do you attach the lower-return stop plate?
Georg -
In reference to your first paragraph, you will recall that the Dekley that I bought from you had the stop plate attached to the block into which the leg theads are cut and, at the other end, to a boss which sticks out from the end plate. You'll also recall that the aprons, threaded blocks, and end plates are all pinned and screwed together - a very solid assembly. This combination should not move under any anticipated stresses incurred as a result of playing the instrument. Although I did not anticipate incorporating another mechanism such as you describe, I saw no reason to relocate or otherwise modify the stop bracket as it was rock-solid as is. The rigidity of those three pieces when assembled should provide a very stable base for any tuning mechanism that you envision. Upon further reading of your description, I gather that you have already made use of that very rigid assembly. If, in your opinion, the overall ridigity of those pieces - apron, end plate, and the other apron - is insufficient then perhaps the simplest means would be to add a beefy plate running the full width of the instrument - a form of triangulation but using a solid plate. Hope I didn't run afoul of your original intent.
Richard.
In reference to your first paragraph, you will recall that the Dekley that I bought from you had the stop plate attached to the block into which the leg theads are cut and, at the other end, to a boss which sticks out from the end plate. You'll also recall that the aprons, threaded blocks, and end plates are all pinned and screwed together - a very solid assembly. This combination should not move under any anticipated stresses incurred as a result of playing the instrument. Although I did not anticipate incorporating another mechanism such as you describe, I saw no reason to relocate or otherwise modify the stop bracket as it was rock-solid as is. The rigidity of those three pieces when assembled should provide a very stable base for any tuning mechanism that you envision. Upon further reading of your description, I gather that you have already made use of that very rigid assembly. If, in your opinion, the overall ridigity of those pieces - apron, end plate, and the other apron - is insufficient then perhaps the simplest means would be to add a beefy plate running the full width of the instrument - a form of triangulation but using a solid plate. Hope I didn't run afoul of your original intent.
Richard.
-
Georg
- Posts: 457
- Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:38 am
- Location: Mandal, VA, Norway & Weeki Wachee, FL, USA
- Contact:
Re: Where / how do you attach the lower-return stop plate?
Richard, about the Dekley ... later models than yours -- "Slimline" which I have 2 of --- are actually not quite so sturdy in the changer area, although plenty rigid enough and better than most other PSGs. My Dekleys are gonna stay the way they are (one is already modified), as what I am aiming at is not to solve problems in them but to build an entirely new PSG with even better stability and more tuning and changer options.
I am "obsessed" (or maybe just plain bored ) about making JI-tuning work optimally for all chords and changes, which for a PSG means retuning all strings on-the-fly to the right ones of 16 pitches in 12 tone octaves. I also want to do it mechanically in the first model, before leaving out all unnecessary parts when I have assembled all components necessary to go mecatronically.
For obvious reason: when wanting to apply leverage with absolute presision, the anchor points must be as stable as technically possible. So as I want to move the stoppers while playing, finding the points most stable relative to the strings, is important.
All inputs that can help me find those stable points in existing constructions, are most welcome. That my own construction is backwards -- will have the entire changer integrated in the keyhead -- doesn't matter at this point in time.
I am "obsessed" (or maybe just plain bored
) about making JI-tuning work optimally for all chords and changes, which for a PSG means retuning all strings on-the-fly to the right ones of 16 pitches in 12 tone octaves. I also want to do it mechanically in the first model, before leaving out all unnecessary parts when I have assembled all components necessary to go mecatronically. For obvious reason: when wanting to apply leverage with absolute presision, the anchor points must be as stable as technically possible. So as I want to move the stoppers while playing, finding the points most stable relative to the strings, is important.
All inputs that can help me find those stable points in existing constructions, are most welcome. That my own construction is backwards -- will have the entire changer integrated in the keyhead -- doesn't matter at this point in time.