need your opinion

[Dave-M]

Hi, Pastor. Simple is good! I have studied some six string tunings, and would also be interested in checking out the copedents you are using. I see there are at least two of them. I, too, like the bright finishes you have used. A good job all around!

Were there any problems noticeable with the ones not using rollers?

Also, as Russ mentioned, please post pics of the undersides.

Thanks,
Dave Marshall

[pastor bruce kiser]

Thanks for all the nice comments!
To give a few answers :
Tuning is Nashville style E9 type with high to low being
G#-E-B-G#-E-B just like most 10 string tuning on 3-4-5-6-8-10.
Pedal pulls are the same for A-B-C---except mine are DAY
setup to accomodate the way my feet move best . Could be
changed as needed .
LKR raises E's to F# -- RKL lowers E's to Eb . Considering
adding 2 levers more .
On the "little classic" - my experiment that actually got
me hooked - 2 pedals - A & B only and same levers as the
other steels.Solid nut gives no trouble except needs lube
frequently.I noticed while playing this little thing on
a recording that it had a very SWEET clear sound . This I
have found out is due mainly to the 3000 ohm (!!) pickup .
I had an extra one left over and mounted it on the steel I'm
building now and two years later got that same sweetness
and clarity I thought I had lost . The other pickups are
single coil Strat type and a Humbucker style and sound good-
but traditional.
Finish is auto type urethane clear with the desired tint
color added.
I'm currently working on a finger setup with separate bridge
consisting of bearings .Have this mocked up on shop wall and
seems to give extra RING when string is plcked. had somewhat this arrangement on " little classic"- but no bearings . This new
setup should work better without the lube problems.
Will try to post underside pics .
Thanks again ! Pastor Bruce

P.S. Changer is PULL-RELEASE with no problems -- easy to play
easy maintenance , and maybe not as many faults as some
may think (opinion).As long as the longest lower is adjusted first
others can probably be added by tuning at the levers ,etc.
Any way , MUSIC is the desired result and these sure have
plenty of that . If the listeners start saying things like "wow,
that break in the third song would have sounded much better
on an all-pull changer" , then we're ALL in trouble!

[Dave-M]

Pastor:

Thanks for the info and pics. You may wish to check out Mac's double changer idea at:

Click Here

Also the following is a converted extraction of an eight string GM I have built, which has an additional 1,5 on top.

I cannot do without the G# to F# lever, which provides the missing F# note. That, in conjunction with the E to D# lever, also provides a major fifth chord at root.

In my layout, I just clamp my knees together for the so-called DOWN-CHORD at root, and push A&B for the UP-CHORD at root. Very convenient! I can play lots of tunes at root fret without too much bar movement.

The 5b gives a partial E9 two frets left of root. In conjunction with the G# to F# lever it turns into a dominant seventh.

With Mac's idea you can get a normal pull-release 2 to 4 over-ride with F# lever and B-pedal at one end, and a 3 to 3b at the other with another pedal. You can also get a 1 to 7b with another pedal, as well as the 1 to 7, since you can now achieve two lowers on the double-ender pull-release mechanism.

OK, so now we have 5 pedals and 4 knees, or maybe a vertical knee, but now we are pretty versatile with no skipped-string grips to play any triads. Add a 5 to 5# on the knee for augmented. Actually someone suggested the 5b should be on the knee for more versatility with the 7 lever, so just swap them.

EM6S-COPED.jpg (36.74 KiB) Viewed 1902 times

[Dave-M]

That might look like this. Pedals 4 &5 give a diminished so I put them together. As an afterthought, maybe D and H locations should be swapped.

The extra 2 on string five on C-pedal is for when you need to get a 1 to 2 slur without picking 2 on the G-lever. Also when pushing A&B, your other foot on C gives a quick change to IIm chord across the whole neck, (which is tough to do in a Day configuration). You'd have to move right 5 frets and use the A-pedal instead, or push G&E two frets left and release the G-lever.

The colours represent string raise and lower amounts based on traditional hot and cold concepts.

EM6SX-coped.jpg (42.19 KiB) Viewed 1899 times

[Dave-M]

Hi Pastor:

Now that I've finished raving on about copedants it is time to ask you some questions.

In the classicbottom.jpg that is a unique idea with the knee levers not using any cross rods.

It is hard to see the pedal and lever stops, but I imagine they must be there somewhere. How are they implemented?

Also what are the two items resembling turnbuckles achieving for the A and B pedals?

In the underblue.jpg there is another turnbuckle-looking item on the end of the fifth string pull-rod. What is the function of that?

In my pull-release I have to have very strong return springs on every lever and pedal, especially on the lowers. You seem to need only two flimsy ones. Obviously I need to improve my mechanical system.

Have you noticed any cabinet drop? Mine has plenty!

Thanks,
Dave

[pastor bruce kiser]

DearDAVE M.,
To respond to your questions , the levers on little classic
actuate the horizontal links which in turn raise or lower
the strings they work. stops are simple screws in the wood
and some spring assist.works first time -every time!
the turn buckles are set up like a ShoBud Maverick in that
they take up slack at the pull rods since the rods do not
have adjusting nuts - only hooks bent into the finger end.
Very simple but seems dependable for the intended use.
I told y'all this was an experiment!There is a sound chamber built
into the body as follows:top made of poplar (color resemles
spruce top acoustic guitars), sides are maple 3/4 thick
bottom is 1/2 birch plywood.thought this would give a
richer sound, but as said before I think the pickup is the
chief agent affecting it's tone.
As for blue under - you must mean the spring at the key end
of the instrument . This is a lowering return spring for the E's.
It is adjustable , but I may move adjustment to the aluminum
end plate so that can be made while seated behind the guitar - looks feasble.These could be Allen screws for each lower .
I deeply appreciate the diagrams and tuning info - I am not too
well versed (pardon pun) in theory at this point but if you get the
5x4 +V built let us know all about it! I just play by the seat of
my pants and try to build one thing upon another but these
guitars sure are fun while playing Blue Bayou breaks and plenty
of good old Gospel .Hope you got your answers.
Thanks for your ear (eyes?)
Pastor Bruce

One more thing (always is with steels!)As far as cab drop , I don't
detect any great amount by listening - probably more sharp or
flat motion in my hands than any where else .See no need at
present to worry about "shadows in the woods" if ,while playing
with others, all sounds as good as it does now .

[Dave-M]

Hi Pastor:

Thanks for the response. You are the only one here whose tuning resembles my own. I find my G-major eight-stringer quite intuitive to play, a glorified Dobro tuning.

I have no formal music training, but picked up some info by using a number system for the chords, and pretending I am playing in the key of C, no matter which root fret I use. All the moves are relative, so I learned to play in only one key instead of twelve.

For instance a C is 1,5,3, an F is 1,6,4, an Am is 1,6,3, a G7 is 2,5,7,4 with 4 being the flat seventh, etcetera. I convert regular piano sheet music to my number system, and prepare some tab. I made a slide rule out of cardboard to simulate the tuning, and move the slides to see where the notes I need are, and what pedals to push. Some chords are achieved in several ways, but some configurations are simpler than others. I also made a computer program in Qbasic to sort out all the different configurations.

About 20 years or so before I built a PSG I bought a Mel Bay book by a guy named Don Sharp. Don's whole book use triads for every chord, except for a few single notes here and there. I don't think he ever used strings 1 and 2.

Meanwhile I raised the nut, and tuned a regular guitar up as DBGDBG. I got familiar with how to get a few tunes out of it.

I finally started off with building my first PSG as a single 12-string 3+5 traditional E9, and tried out Don's tab. I kept getting lost as to which set of strings to pick, and did a poor job on E9.

I took off 2 strings and bought a few more tutorial books. I made the fourth string bronze, and colour-coded the right-hand end of the fretboard with dabs of acrylic paint to help keep track of where I was. My playing still sucked.

I said bad words, added two more pedals, and retuned to traditional C6 with a wealth of knee-levers. Now I was all set to play something nice. What a laugh! I could fumble a few tunes on open tuning, but the grips were worse than the E9. More bad words.

I left the C6 to rot, and decided to use 8-string dobro tuning and built my second PSG. After experimenting with all kinds of pedal pulls, and adding the extra pedals, I came up with the copedant below. I have not swapped V and X pulls yet due to mechanical constraints, but intend to build a third PSG using Mac's double-ender design to facilitate easier tuning.

Meanwhile, I tuned the first PSG back to E9 to have another try. All the guys on youtube and in this forum play it so nicely, BUT MY E9 PLAYING STILL SUCKS BIGTIME!

I can finally play something on the GM, that doesn't sound too bad to me, but would never try to play before an audience. Some of the pedals and levers I don't use very much, remnants of the experiments.

My so-called C pedal provides a nice sequence of chords, playing in triads from top to bottom. The top 4 strings can be alternately used effectively in playing triads for that old style tune, "I'm In The Mood For Love", on the "funny, but when you're near me" line, progressing left from root plus two.

GM-2011.jpg (47.37 KiB) Viewed 1870 times