Tone and materials.

[jetmacjoe]

Some many questions before I even drill a hole.
I see a lot of brass nuts. It seems harder material would dampen the strings least.
But brass is nice and heavy....
What are opinions on different alloys?
1. Is there a noticable tone difference between 6061 or 7075 aluminum?
2. Anybody know tone characteristics of Titanium? Stainless Steel? Mild steel?
3. How deep should the strings set in the grooves of the nut and bridge?

[Allan]

1. Is there a noticable tone difference between 6061 or 7075 aluminum?
2. Anybody know tone characteristics of Titanium? Stainless Steel? Mild steel?
3. How deep should the strings set in the grooves of the nut and bridge?

1 & 2 - Hmmmmm. I like brass, looks good, seems to sound good to my ear. Easy to work. But if you know how to work titanium and how to get those amazing heat colors on it - yeah, could be interesting too.
3 - Ah, you will get a few opinions on this one. Here's mine. The first important thing is that the strings don't move across the bridge. So, if they are anchored close to the bridge that won't happen. You may not need to grove the bridge! Now, the Nut. It depends on your chosen tuning. What I mean is that your choice of strings will dictate this. You want to be able to run the bar all the way off the strings at the nut end and you want the bar to be in contact with all of the strings as you do so.
Does that make sense? I am sure you will get answers to all three questions from some of the others. There are some VERY knowledgeable guys on here.

Welcome to the forum.
Regards, Allan.....

[Bent]

Hi Joe, Here's my take.
1. I think the question should be: ...between extruded and cast aluminum. The answer, is yes from what I have been told. Cast is better for tone, I have heard.
As to 6061 T6(it has to be T6) and 7075, I recommend 6061 T6 for its better workability, better welding properties and better finishing properties, as well as a much wider availability in all sizes. 6061 is used in aircraft construction, and is certainly strong enough for a steel. It rings wonderfully when struck.
Brass is dead sounding when struck. So is bronze. Why then is bronze used in church- and ship bells? They have the most beautiful tone!
2. I don't know much about tone for this but have been told that the harder the steel, the brighter the tone. I wouldn't use mild steel in a pedal steel because it rusts. All screws, bolts and nuts used in my steels are stainless.

3. The rollers on the nut. Interesting subject. And I have learned a bit since the production of my first 3 steels.
Our fellow forumite, "Burt" , engineer and steel builder gave us the formula a while back: The groove in the roller should be: Use a plunge cutter in the lathe. It has been ground to a 60 degree angle. Plunge this cutter straight into the roller to a depth of 1.5 times the width of the string. That way this perfect V-groove will make the string contact the groove at only 2 points(recommended) and also leave the strings on the same level(looking across the top of the strings at the nut.) So say you have a .22" gauge string, you plunge the cutter to a depth of .33"

I am in the process of having new rollers turned as we speak. One set for mine and one for the guitar in England. So Burt, your formula WILL be tested. I hope you are 100% correct

On guitars with conventional changers, the fingers where the string goes over are smooth.

[jetmacjoe]

Whoa,
Thanks Alan and Bent so much! I have more confidence to go forward with tried and true knowledge. I'm trying to put together an 8 string from scrap materials I happen to have around
which includes extruded 6061-T6 that I have mounted some mandolin tuners to and some Brass rod for the nut. I will keep the cast aluminum in mind for 10 string guitar #2.



"Brass is dead sounding when struck. So is bronze. Why then is bronze used in church- and ship bells? They have the most beautiful tone!"

Hmmmm...I was building a brass hammer once years ago for removing bolts without damaging the threads.I had ordered what I thought was 7/8" Brass Rod from the abbreviated materials list, had the hammer done before I noticed some eyebrows were raised and someone informed me I had ordered a $2000+ piece of Silica Bronze Rod.I Still have that hammer and a little scrap in my tool box. I think I'll polish it up and see how it sounds as a fretting bar. Some successes in my life have been the result of such dumb luck!

[Allan]

Do you use that hammer? I think I would have it on the wall in a glass fronted case!

I worked, for a while, on a weapons research related project and had to make frequent changes to a robotic vehicle. Shifting cables around meant that we used a LOT of plastic cable ties. I used to order them through military stores in lots of around 200 per month. Then, I decided that this was silly and I would go ahead and get enough for the next year. At the same time, someone in authority decided that having them in the materials list as individual items was silly and changed the definition from 'each' to 'pack of 100'. So, when I placed my order for 2,400 I actually received 240,000. Another time I placed a recurring order for hydraulic fluid. 480 gallons to be delivered in 10 gallon drums at monthly intervals over a two year period. Someone up the supply chain crossed over a couple of numbers and I ended up buying the oil locally on a local purchase order while the stores system delivered a silver plated bandsman's trumpet every 28 days for two years.

Sorry, I have hijacked your thread!

Allan.....

[Pat Comeau]

Bent said=

1. I think the question should be: ...between extruded and cast aluminum. The answer, is yes from what I have been told. Cast is better for tone

Someone once told me the same thing ...cast sounds better than mill or extruded aluminum, example...compared a bell casting with one made with a mill lath machine and you'll here the cast bell rings and sustain forever... compared to other method

[Georg]

I'm curious ... what is supposed to sound the best and "sustain" the longest; the instrument body/parts or the strings?

Also: if the PU is mounted "hard" on/in the body, then we'll hear both string and body tone and a varying degree of "microphonic effect", but if the PU is suspended it'll only pick up the strings and the return from the body via the strings.

What I'm saying is that I'm not so sure if the materials with the best tone and sustain used as bridges and other body parts, necessarily result in improved string tone and "sustain".

FWIW: I like heavy brass bridges, but back in time when I "played around" with such things I got more out of getting the shapes and mountings right than of the actual materials.

[Allan]

I think everything else contributes to the sustain which needs to be centered on the string. Like Georg, I favor a heavy, brass bridge. In fact, I have one right here that I have fabricated for one of the two lap steels that I have awaiting suitable weather for getting some kind of finish on.
The questions that exist around 'suspending the pickup' are interesting too. I think I am right in saying that the famous Gibson P90 single coil was not dipped and so was microphonic to an extent. (even if it was 'dipped' Gibson never used wax so their PU's are/were all microphonic to some degree due to lack of penetration of the lacquer type of coating) The style of mounting of a P90 involves screwing it to the body of the instrument as opposed to the spring mounting of, say, a Strat PU. I feel that this explains some of what is called the 'brown' sound of the P90 and the 'silver' sound of the Fender Strat type PU. (Fender PU's are dipped in hot wax which goes right into the coil and does much to reduce microphony)
So, what I am saying in a round about way is that, while all systems feed the string to get sustain, there are cases where body vibration feed directly in to the sound also.
I think, in addition, that Georg is correct in that the mounting of the bridge is very much part of the 'sound' of the guitar. There is nothing more basic than the simplistic pressed steel of a Telecaster bridge but it works really well due to how firmly it is mounted to the body. If you have ever changed a Tele bridge for one of the smaller hard tails, or for a trem set up, you will be well aware of the changes to the basic Tele tone.
As regards materials, there are still acoustic and acoustic/electric 'f' hole, cello style, guitars being made with hard wood bridges and they sound great. The material does matter but mounting and fixing are easily as important.

Regards, Allan.....

[jgrant42]

Is oak not a good choice of wood for a lap steel body. I have a bunch of oak from some church benches and was going to try to use butthought I should ask that ?

Jim

[Allan]

Oak is hard to work with and has a large open grain. It is also heavy. I have use oak for builds and it sustains around average. I assume that you are talking about red oak here as it is the most common. To get a good finish on the body you should really use a paste type grain filler and, honestly, that is HARD work. If you don't mind the grain then a nice hand rubbed finish can make oak very attractive.
The well known steel player from the UK, Sara Jory (spelling?), has a steel she has had for a long time and it is built from oak. She says it is still one of her favorite sounds.
Bottom line, for a first build, if you have the material, use it. It is easy to make mistakes at the start of building and if you have gone out and bought an expensive piece of wood and spoiled it you may never start again!!!

OK, that's my thoughts, lets see what others think.

Regards, Allan.....