Hi all
would it be poss for someome to help with measurements please
Distance from bridge to nut
Is it wise to have groves in both bridge and nut
Measurements of fretboard
Measurements between strings.
Is there a particular pick up to use without brakeing the bank Can I copy fret
Can measurement's be taken off the shop bought on ( remembering it sounds terrible.compared to all Ive listened to )
on the one I have the distance bridge to nut is 21" the fret board is 17" with 28 fret's ..dose any alterations to these measurements make it sound better, as this was a cheep guitar
so i dont know if these are good or bad and what is making it sound so bad
i hope ive explained that proply..Hope you can help thanks in antisipation
Regards Paul ps I think what Im trying to say I dont know what makes a good guitar or a not so good...
Need some help with Measurements Please
Re: Need some help with Measurements Please
Hi Paul,
Just a few basics from me since there are others way more expert making lap steel here.
It is the "scale length" of your guitar that dictates the distance from bridge to nut. The way scale length is calculated is to measure from where the string touches the bridge, to where it touches the nut. Others here can tell you the popular scale length for a lap steel.
It is normal to have grooves in nut only.
The measurement of the fret board and the distance between frets is dictated by the scale length. Allan has a handy fret calculator drawn up. Another one you can find here. I find it very hand and simple to use http://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator
Distance between strings: For pedal steel I use 11/32", which I think is the most popular. For lap steel I heard that some use 3/8"
I believe that you should spend money on a good pickup, because it ca make or break the guitar. Others here will likely chime in with their recommendations
Good luck with your project!
Just a few basics from me since there are others way more expert making lap steel here.
It is the "scale length" of your guitar that dictates the distance from bridge to nut. The way scale length is calculated is to measure from where the string touches the bridge, to where it touches the nut. Others here can tell you the popular scale length for a lap steel.
It is normal to have grooves in nut only.
The measurement of the fret board and the distance between frets is dictated by the scale length. Allan has a handy fret calculator drawn up. Another one you can find here. I find it very hand and simple to use http://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator
Distance between strings: For pedal steel I use 11/32", which I think is the most popular. For lap steel I heard that some use 3/8"
I believe that you should spend money on a good pickup, because it ca make or break the guitar. Others here will likely chime in with their recommendations
Good luck with your project!
http://benrom.com/
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
Re: Need some help with Measurements Please
Hello Paul,
Some of what I say here will be repeats of Bent's words. Forgive me for that, it just keeps my thoughts straight.
OK, there are three things you need to decide before you start building your guitar. These are, width at the nut, width at the bridge and scale length. What the first two are, is obvious. The third one is the distance between the nut and the bridge.
Once you have decided on those three things you will find that it is a good thing to make a simple drawing showing just those three things as lines. For a first steel build keep the over all shape simple. That really means symmetrical. So, the line you drew for the scale length will form the center line of the guitar. Get a large sheet of paper and do this full size!!!
Now you can decide on the rest of the things you want to do. The string spacing you decide on will depend, partly, on the pickup you decide to use but most standard pickups are spaced at around 3/8". The 11/32" that you will see mentioned sometimes is the string spacing that was used on the Fender String Master and sort of became a standard. The difference between the two standards is 1/32" and at this point is not important to you. Add the lines for the strings to your drawing. You said that you wanted to keep the cost reasonable so that really means using a readily available pickup. So, you will probably be using 6 strings and a standard guitar pickup. I would recommend a humbucker for your first build. It is easier to get a good sound without having to worry about hum and buzz than with a single coil. Try a single coil for your next one.
Make your bridge and nut and also the string retainer from simple materials this time around. Aluminum angle is easy to work with and not expensive.
Now go to the other end of the drawing and work out where your machine heads will go. You want as straight a pull as you can manage to get. This is more critical on a steel guitar than on a standard guitar. The reason for this is that the nut slots need to be shallow to allow the bar to pull right off the strings at the nut.
You really need to have all of the hardware on hand before you start to cut the wood. This lets you lay everything out in place to get a good mental picture of what you are trying to achieve. Don't forget to include the controls and the output socket when you do the layup.
I can't say much more at this stage because I have no idea what you have in mind or what tools you have available to achieve that result.
Go ahead for now and produce your drawing then come back with any questions that you have at that time.
All the best with it.
Allan.....
Some of what I say here will be repeats of Bent's words. Forgive me for that, it just keeps my thoughts straight.
OK, there are three things you need to decide before you start building your guitar. These are, width at the nut, width at the bridge and scale length. What the first two are, is obvious. The third one is the distance between the nut and the bridge.
Once you have decided on those three things you will find that it is a good thing to make a simple drawing showing just those three things as lines. For a first steel build keep the over all shape simple. That really means symmetrical. So, the line you drew for the scale length will form the center line of the guitar. Get a large sheet of paper and do this full size!!!
Now you can decide on the rest of the things you want to do. The string spacing you decide on will depend, partly, on the pickup you decide to use but most standard pickups are spaced at around 3/8". The 11/32" that you will see mentioned sometimes is the string spacing that was used on the Fender String Master and sort of became a standard. The difference between the two standards is 1/32" and at this point is not important to you. Add the lines for the strings to your drawing. You said that you wanted to keep the cost reasonable so that really means using a readily available pickup. So, you will probably be using 6 strings and a standard guitar pickup. I would recommend a humbucker for your first build. It is easier to get a good sound without having to worry about hum and buzz than with a single coil. Try a single coil for your next one.
Make your bridge and nut and also the string retainer from simple materials this time around. Aluminum angle is easy to work with and not expensive.
Now go to the other end of the drawing and work out where your machine heads will go. You want as straight a pull as you can manage to get. This is more critical on a steel guitar than on a standard guitar. The reason for this is that the nut slots need to be shallow to allow the bar to pull right off the strings at the nut.
You really need to have all of the hardware on hand before you start to cut the wood. This lets you lay everything out in place to get a good mental picture of what you are trying to achieve. Don't forget to include the controls and the output socket when you do the layup.
I can't say much more at this stage because I have no idea what you have in mind or what tools you have available to achieve that result.
Go ahead for now and produce your drawing then come back with any questions that you have at that time.
All the best with it.
Allan.....
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Keep yer tools sharp! That way you can use more of your strength guiding them AWAY from your body rather than forcing the cut!!!
Keep yer tools sharp! That way you can use more of your strength guiding them AWAY from your body rather than forcing the cut!!!
Re: Need some help with Measurements Please
Just a quick point, your current steel has a scale length of 21" you said - that is short, very short. The shortest I have ever seen is 22 1/2". Many go up to around 25" or even slightly more. The longer the scale length, the tighter the strings will need to be to arrive at a standard tuning.
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Keep yer tools sharp! That way you can use more of your strength guiding them AWAY from your body rather than forcing the cut!!!
Keep yer tools sharp! That way you can use more of your strength guiding them AWAY from your body rather than forcing the cut!!!
-
Paul Higgins
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:35 pm
Re: Need some help with Measurements Please
Thank you Brad and allan..for very detailed reply and of cause for thaking the time also..
Firstly..the sun is shinning in the UK today..(we dont get many )
Secondly my wife thinks Ive lost the plot..But on a personel note..when i learned the keyboard i struggled at first then i got a good one and because it sound's so good, it then gave me a spike and I learned much quicker..Im hoping this will be the case again.(so that's the why )
I was thinking of 8 strings for the reason that when the time came once i had learned the 6 i could move up...But i received Doug C6 book and CD and to be honest if I could sound half as good as that I would be happy..! so now Im not sure ! also if it is going to be a problem getting 8 pick up...
The timber I have ordered is 4ftx9" X 2and three quater thick is this going to be enough..I was thinking of a simple design like some of the ones Ive seen on hear..
Timber maple and maghog fret board
I am a chippie ( carpenter joiner ) not sure what it is over there.. I dont have acces to a band saw but think I could take it to a local joinery to be done..
The rest I think should be alright..
The head I was thinking of a simple like on a standard guitar (good or bad ?? )
The bridge and nut I was thinking of brass 1/2 inc turned down to 3/8 ( good or bad )???
not sure what is best to string through the body or not..( the one I have now has the same adjustible on as on an electric guitar )
Humbucker pick up..I looked on net but there are so many what is recomended
Volume / tone control I do need some advice also
Thank you once..again..Paul
Firstly..the sun is shinning in the UK today..(we dont get many )
Secondly my wife thinks Ive lost the plot..But on a personel note..when i learned the keyboard i struggled at first then i got a good one and because it sound's so good, it then gave me a spike and I learned much quicker..Im hoping this will be the case again.(so that's the why )
I was thinking of 8 strings for the reason that when the time came once i had learned the 6 i could move up...But i received Doug C6 book and CD and to be honest if I could sound half as good as that I would be happy..! so now Im not sure ! also if it is going to be a problem getting 8 pick up...
The timber I have ordered is 4ftx9" X 2and three quater thick is this going to be enough..I was thinking of a simple design like some of the ones Ive seen on hear..
Timber maple and maghog fret board
I am a chippie ( carpenter joiner ) not sure what it is over there.. I dont have acces to a band saw but think I could take it to a local joinery to be done..
The rest I think should be alright..
The head I was thinking of a simple like on a standard guitar (good or bad ?? )
The bridge and nut I was thinking of brass 1/2 inc turned down to 3/8 ( good or bad )???
not sure what is best to string through the body or not..( the one I have now has the same adjustible on as on an electric guitar )
Humbucker pick up..I looked on net but there are so many what is recomended
Volume / tone control I do need some advice also
Thank you once..again..Paul
Re: Need some help with Measurements Please
The reason I suggested a six string guitar was simply one of cost. You will pay more, possibly much more, for an eight pole pick up. Your choice.
The maple you have on order is plenty large enough. No worries there. I generally work with 1 1/2" thickness.
The head design along the lines of a standard guitar will be OK. Just be sure to position your tuners so as to get as straight a pull to the nut as possible.
The bridge and nut can be brass if you wish. I like brass. Some will tell you that brass is not so good for sustain. I have not really found that to be true. Also, I like the look of brass.
String through the body would work but so would a simple piece of angle drilled to suit the string spacing and fixed to the front of the guitar. I don't actually find that string through makes much difference, if any, to the sound, so, go with what you like the look of. Just remember that, if you decide to go through the body, you will need to fit some kind of ferules.
For the pickup, any one that comes from a well known manufacturer will probably be fine. I am about to put a Di Marzio into a guitar I am finishing up. It's a personal choice.
As far as the volume/tone controls and the rest of the wiring goes there is a post in the electronics section of this forum that deals with that. It is called 'Wiring your guitar...' Down load the two PDF files there and see if it makes sense to you.
Regards, Allan.....
The maple you have on order is plenty large enough. No worries there. I generally work with 1 1/2" thickness.
The head design along the lines of a standard guitar will be OK. Just be sure to position your tuners so as to get as straight a pull to the nut as possible.
The bridge and nut can be brass if you wish. I like brass. Some will tell you that brass is not so good for sustain. I have not really found that to be true. Also, I like the look of brass.
String through the body would work but so would a simple piece of angle drilled to suit the string spacing and fixed to the front of the guitar. I don't actually find that string through makes much difference, if any, to the sound, so, go with what you like the look of. Just remember that, if you decide to go through the body, you will need to fit some kind of ferules.
For the pickup, any one that comes from a well known manufacturer will probably be fine. I am about to put a Di Marzio into a guitar I am finishing up. It's a personal choice.
As far as the volume/tone controls and the rest of the wiring goes there is a post in the electronics section of this forum that deals with that. It is called 'Wiring your guitar...' Down load the two PDF files there and see if it makes sense to you.
Regards, Allan.....
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Keep yer tools sharp! That way you can use more of your strength guiding them AWAY from your body rather than forcing the cut!!!
Keep yer tools sharp! That way you can use more of your strength guiding them AWAY from your body rather than forcing the cut!!!
-
Paul Higgins
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:35 pm
Re: Need some help with Measurements Please
Hello Allan, thank you ever so much for giving your time...
"quote...Just a quick point, your current steel has a scale length of 21" you said - that is short, very short. The shortest I have ever seen is 22 1/2". Many go up to around 25" or even slightly more. The longer the scale length, the tighter the strings will need to be to arrive at a standard tuning."
as Above I havent clicked yet on the scale length and dont truly understand...the one I have here is as you say 21.from Nut TO Bridge (olthough is hasent actualy got a bridge..its they type that are on the ord electric guitar with adjustable hight on each string and also a spring to adjust length)
What length do you think would be good?
I understand what you are saying about the nut groves ( I have had a look at the one I have here..
Strings through... body I am not sure but I thought I read it gave a better sound..I surpose is is inividual choice....
I have collected my timber today....
I have a large peice of paper..( well realy its 1/8th play ) to do pattern on and as you say lay it out
The timber is finished to 4ft x 8. 3/4 x 1. 3/4....( it is quite heavy)
I have downloaded the electrical pdf..and seems stright forward ...
so once I know the right scale length I can start marking out..and realy I am hoping for surgestions built on your experience, hope you dont mind..
I am surmising from your post the scale length is from the nut to the bridge..am I right..??
How far from the nut dose the fretboard come down ??? Hope you dont mind too much all these questions..George boards has called their new model Stealth...Im going to call ming Guitar by proxey..
Out of intrest..on standard guitar the pu's are 2 stright and 1 slanted what is the reason for this
Oh by the way I am going to go for 6 string it will keep the cost down. what Ive heard done on c6 is fantistic ( I know it's the player not the guitar..well not all of it, and as I have said if I get to be half as good then I will be happy..if I get there then i can think again..
The pick up Im not realy sure what to do so many to choose from ( again without braking the bank ) Thank you once again for all your help it is realy appreciated...
Best Regards Paul
"quote...Just a quick point, your current steel has a scale length of 21" you said - that is short, very short. The shortest I have ever seen is 22 1/2". Many go up to around 25" or even slightly more. The longer the scale length, the tighter the strings will need to be to arrive at a standard tuning."
as Above I havent clicked yet on the scale length and dont truly understand...the one I have here is as you say 21.from Nut TO Bridge (olthough is hasent actualy got a bridge..its they type that are on the ord electric guitar with adjustable hight on each string and also a spring to adjust length)
What length do you think would be good?
I understand what you are saying about the nut groves ( I have had a look at the one I have here..
Strings through... body I am not sure but I thought I read it gave a better sound..I surpose is is inividual choice....
I have collected my timber today....
I have a large peice of paper..( well realy its 1/8th play ) to do pattern on and as you say lay it out
The timber is finished to 4ft x 8. 3/4 x 1. 3/4....( it is quite heavy)
I have downloaded the electrical pdf..and seems stright forward ...
so once I know the right scale length I can start marking out..and realy I am hoping for surgestions built on your experience, hope you dont mind..
I am surmising from your post the scale length is from the nut to the bridge..am I right..??
How far from the nut dose the fretboard come down ??? Hope you dont mind too much all these questions..George boards has called their new model Stealth...Im going to call ming Guitar by proxey..
Out of intrest..on standard guitar the pu's are 2 stright and 1 slanted what is the reason for this
Oh by the way I am going to go for 6 string it will keep the cost down. what Ive heard done on c6 is fantistic ( I know it's the player not the guitar..well not all of it, and as I have said if I get to be half as good then I will be happy..if I get there then i can think again..
The pick up Im not realy sure what to do so many to choose from ( again without braking the bank ) Thank you once again for all your help it is realy appreciated...
Best Regards Paul
Re: Need some help with Measurements Please
Hi again,
Yes, the scale length is the distance from the nut to the bridge.
You say that the steel you have right now has an adjustable bridge, like on an electric guitar - that is not right for a steel guitar. On a steel you do NOT need an adjustable bridge. For a start the strings all need to be the same height and the same length.
Scale length is a very personal choice but if you just can't decide, OK, go for 24". Heeheeheee, there are many who will say other lengths but if you just can't decide - go for 24"...
As for string through the body, I have experimented with this and can't find any advantage. Again, others disagree, so I say, do what ever makes you feel good.
Your timber will not be quite so heavy once you have cut out the guitar shape and routed all the hollows. Maple is heavy but you will be removing quite a bit of that.
The fretboard length will depend on the number of frets that you finally decide on. I would go for at least 24 frets. That would mean that the last fret would be at 18" from the nut. Let me know when you finally decide on scale length and I will send you a fret position diagram for that scale length.
Using six strings will certainly be less expensive. As far as the pickup goes, most humbuckers are around the same size so go for an inexpensive one and later, if everything is good you can always change it out for a different one if you want to.
So, start your layout diagram. Center line then nut and bridge. Then add the strings but only between the nut line and the bridge line at this stage. Then work on the positions of the tuners. Remember, as straight a pull as possible. Also, be sure to leave enough room between the nut and the closest tuners. Look at pics on the forums to see what works for the head and tuner design. If you have a digital camera you could take a pic of the drawing at the top end and let us see what you are thinking.
You asked about the 'slanted' pickup. I guess you are talking about a Fender Strat. The closer that the PU is to the bridge, the more treble the PU will sound. So, angling the PU gives the Strat a particular sound that is recognizable as the 'Strat Sound'. It also reduces the level of the treble strings so that they sound more treble but without being loud and piercing.
Regards, Allan.....
Yes, the scale length is the distance from the nut to the bridge.
You say that the steel you have right now has an adjustable bridge, like on an electric guitar - that is not right for a steel guitar. On a steel you do NOT need an adjustable bridge. For a start the strings all need to be the same height and the same length.
Scale length is a very personal choice but if you just can't decide, OK, go for 24". Heeheeheee, there are many who will say other lengths but if you just can't decide - go for 24"...
As for string through the body, I have experimented with this and can't find any advantage. Again, others disagree, so I say, do what ever makes you feel good.
Your timber will not be quite so heavy once you have cut out the guitar shape and routed all the hollows. Maple is heavy but you will be removing quite a bit of that.
The fretboard length will depend on the number of frets that you finally decide on. I would go for at least 24 frets. That would mean that the last fret would be at 18" from the nut. Let me know when you finally decide on scale length and I will send you a fret position diagram for that scale length.
Using six strings will certainly be less expensive. As far as the pickup goes, most humbuckers are around the same size so go for an inexpensive one and later, if everything is good you can always change it out for a different one if you want to.
So, start your layout diagram. Center line then nut and bridge. Then add the strings but only between the nut line and the bridge line at this stage. Then work on the positions of the tuners. Remember, as straight a pull as possible. Also, be sure to leave enough room between the nut and the closest tuners. Look at pics on the forums to see what works for the head and tuner design. If you have a digital camera you could take a pic of the drawing at the top end and let us see what you are thinking.
You asked about the 'slanted' pickup. I guess you are talking about a Fender Strat. The closer that the PU is to the bridge, the more treble the PU will sound. So, angling the PU gives the Strat a particular sound that is recognizable as the 'Strat Sound'. It also reduces the level of the treble strings so that they sound more treble but without being loud and piercing.
Regards, Allan.....
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Keep yer tools sharp! That way you can use more of your strength guiding them AWAY from your body rather than forcing the cut!!!
Keep yer tools sharp! That way you can use more of your strength guiding them AWAY from your body rather than forcing the cut!!!
-
Paul Higgins
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:35 pm
Re: Need some help with Measurements Please
Hi Again and thank you again for taking the time..
The brass rod is ordered...the copper foil is ordered..going Sunday to look at some turners and volume/tone at a local music outlet..then that leaves the frets and the pick up..
The scale length after a lot of deliberation I think Ill go for Errrrr 24".. the fretboard I had cut is 24" so that will be plenty..
The steel I have here with the ajustable bridge also has a "slanted" pick up..perhaps that is why It sounds so tinny with the tone all the way....
The head as you say I will look at others They do say imatation..is the highest form of flattery
I personaly dont mind as long as it works..
Strings..I might be tempted to do them the way Georgeboards dose, it is a lot slimplier..Or looks that way Im sure he wont mind...
While on the subject of strings any surgestions on string gauge ! " 6 string guitar " maybe 8 next time..
slightly off the subject when I went to collect the timber..(150 mile round trip) I saw ( carnt remember the name ) but the guy says its a good replacement for oak..it dose look very much like it and has a rich gold tinge and yet a lot lighter. and he says easyer to work with...the stuff they where making was for a church....might be my next one...
look forward to the fret drawing...I have learned a lot thus far..
They do say you learn something new every day and in my case its right,,,
OH got to get new roughter..mine has seen better days motor is struggling a bit..
I know I keepn saying but it realy is apprecated..thank you...
Best Regards Paul
The brass rod is ordered...the copper foil is ordered..going Sunday to look at some turners and volume/tone at a local music outlet..then that leaves the frets and the pick up..
The scale length after a lot of deliberation I think Ill go for Errrrr 24".. the fretboard I had cut is 24" so that will be plenty..
The steel I have here with the ajustable bridge also has a "slanted" pick up..perhaps that is why It sounds so tinny with the tone all the way....
The head as you say I will look at others They do say imatation..is the highest form of flattery
I personaly dont mind as long as it works..
Strings..I might be tempted to do them the way Georgeboards dose, it is a lot slimplier..Or looks that way Im sure he wont mind...
While on the subject of strings any surgestions on string gauge ! " 6 string guitar " maybe 8 next time..
slightly off the subject when I went to collect the timber..(150 mile round trip) I saw ( carnt remember the name ) but the guy says its a good replacement for oak..it dose look very much like it and has a rich gold tinge and yet a lot lighter. and he says easyer to work with...the stuff they where making was for a church....might be my next one...
look forward to the fret drawing...I have learned a lot thus far..
They do say you learn something new every day and in my case its right,,,
OH got to get new roughter..mine has seen better days motor is struggling a bit..
I know I keepn saying but it realy is apprecated..thank you...
Best Regards Paul
Re: Need some help with Measurements Please
Paul, you're well on your way my man. Stay close to Allan, he will coach you thru the whole thing, with minimal interference from me. Have you decided on string spacing yet?
So you got something that looks like oak but lighter. I am guessing that you got Ash. If so, that's a good tough wood. A dramatic grain that takes stain well.
If you have a digital camera, it would be great if you post pics on here as the project goes forward.
Good luck!
So you got something that looks like oak but lighter. I am guessing that you got Ash. If so, that's a good tough wood. A dramatic grain that takes stain well.
If you have a digital camera, it would be great if you post pics on here as the project goes forward.
Good luck!
http://benrom.com/
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.