Lap steel project

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Starsailor
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:15 pm
Location: Sweden

Lap steel project

Post by Starsailor »

Hi everyone!

I’m new to this forum and to the lap steel as well. I’ve been playing guitar for 15 years, but it would be interesting to try out something different. I have a couple of guitar related projects going on so I thought that maybe I could build myself a lap steel at the same time.
I will make my own design, but when it comes to sound, my main inspiration is the National New Yorker, and foremost the models from the thirties with one visible and two concealed pickups. I’m not going to search for obsolete authentic special parts though; instead I will use what I can find on the net. Anyhow, before I start purchasing parts for this project I have some questions that I need to straighten out. I would much appreciate if you could help me with some input!


1. What scale length is the National New Yorker? 22,5”?, 23”?


2. The more versatile sound – the better and with three pickups combined with a 5-way rotary switch there will be plenty of possibilities. But if I have to pick just one sound character for my upcoming steel, this Is what I’m looking for:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFOwsAGA ... re=related sounds absolutely beautiful!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbYVtmIJBVE (In harp mode only)


a) The question is: What combination of pickups should I use to get as close to these sounds as possible? Humbucking?, strat?, tele?, P90?, soap bar?, lipstick?


b) What about output and resistance of the pickups?


c) Does anyone know how the New Yorker is wired in the harp mode?


d) What positions is then preferable for each pickup type?


e) Where are the best positions for the concealed pickups? For instance, does one of the concealed pickups need to be placed right under 24th “fret”?


First I had this wacky idea of using the pole pieces of the pickup as “fret markers” – that would be drilling six holes through the fingerboard for both 12th and 24th fret and then fix the pups somehow so that the top of the magnets (preferable painted in black) would look like black dot markers as on a conventional guitar and blend in together with the rest of the dot markers, but first out, I have no clue if the particular sound would benefit from that solution. And then I guess it probably would be a lot trickier to build it that way too, so maybe it has to wait till next project, I’m not sure.
Any comments on this idea?

Anyhow, when using concealed pickups there’s more or less wood covering the pickups which I guess will affect and interfere with the ability to pick up the string vibrations. I’ve never tried experimenting with concealed pickups, but my first thought is that the signal would decrease a lot compared to using a visible pickup. If that’s true you have to have hotter pickups for it to work and balance with the visible bridge pickup. Am I right and is this a big issue? Solutions?
Well, this is why I got into the visible pole piece thing. But since the New Yorker works and sounds lovely with concealed pups, I guess it would work for me as well. At least I hope so! :)


3. What string gauge would you recommend?


4. I’m quite unsure about what kind of bridge I will use; it feels like there’s a jungle out there. Tele bridge, tune-o-matic, a string-through-body solution and all the specific lap steel bridges...


a) If I for example would use a classic tele bridge with (or without) string through body and then use brass bars instead of the teles bridge saddles and as a nut as well. Then, do the bars need to have notches in both nut and bridge position?
I think I’ve read somewhere that in some cases you don’t need notches, but to me it feels like the string would slip without them.


b) If I use some kind of string-through-body do the bushings need to go throughout the body so that the strings lean on the same material (as few “vibrations points” as possible for increased sustain) all the way from the ball end of the strings to the machine heads?


c) Wrap-around bridges is also an alternative. But since most of these bridges have saddles at different hight, can there be a radius issue? Or is it just to file down the four top saddles and get a decent result that way?


d) Does standard string spread for guitar work well for lap steel?
Any ideas or recommendations on bridges for my purpose? The simpler the better, but again, any bridge that turns the sound a fraction closer to the New Yorker I will probably use. :D


Alright, that was a lot of questions, but any help would be much appreciated. Thanks!
c. winn
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:03 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: Lap steel project

Post by c. winn »

I can't answer many (if any) of your questions and I unfortunately have no knowledge of New Yorkers, but I have a few comments:

RE: P/Ups at the 12th & 24th fret. I had the same idea to put a pickup under the 12th fret of a steel just for crazy sounds, but I never got around to it. I'd be interested to hear how it sounds.

4a: I'm using a metal round for a saddle & a metal nut on a string through build right now. I plan to notch the nut to hold the strings in place, but I figure I'll leave the bar polished and allow the string pressure to hold the strings in place. If I have problems with the strings "creeping" out of alignment, I'll notch the saddle. I hope I don't have to, though.

4b: I posed a related question regarding the proper diameter for the string holes on a thru-body design. One builder that commented said he uses ferrules; another used rivets, and I'm using a solid metal plate inlaid in the back of the steel with individual string holes drilled. I suppose you don't have to use anything, but some sort of string retainer will only help to protect the guitar body, maintain a consistent place for the string, and (hopefully) increase sustain.

4c: Get your file. That's what I've read, at least.

4d: I'd say any string spread that works for you will work fine.



I can't provide any info regarding the New Yorker, but I'd strongly recommend you find one. As I've been building, I go to music stores & inspect their steels; maybe you could find one in a shop near you, or you could find someone that owns one?

Good luck -
Allan
Posts: 419
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:55 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Lap steel project

Post by Allan »

Have you tried doing a search in the 'Steel Guitar Forum'? There are a couple of good threads on that instrument on there.

Allan.....
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Keep yer tools sharp! That way you can use more of your strength guiding them AWAY from your body rather than forcing the cut!!!
Starsailor
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:15 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Lap steel project

Post by Starsailor »

c. winn wrote:I can't answer many (if any) of your questions and I unfortunately have no knowledge of New Yorkers, but I have a few comments:

RE: P/Ups at the 12th & 24th fret. I had the same idea to put a pickup under the 12th fret of a steel just for crazy sounds, but I never got around to it. I'd be interested to hear how it sounds.

4a: I'm using a metal round for a saddle & a metal nut on a string through build right now. I plan to notch the nut to hold the strings in place, but I figure I'll leave the bar polished and allow the string pressure to hold the strings in place. If I have problems with the strings "creeping" out of alignment, I'll notch the saddle. I hope I don't have to, though.

4b: I posed a related question regarding the proper diameter for the string holes on a thru-body design. One builder that commented said he uses ferrules; another used rivets, and I'm using a solid metal plate inlaid in the back of the steel with individual string holes drilled. I suppose you don't have to use anything, but some sort of string retainer will only help to protect the guitar body, maintain a consistent place for the string, and (hopefully) increase sustain.

4c: Get your file. That's what I've read, at least.

4d: I'd say any string spread that works for you will work fine.



I can't provide any info regarding the New Yorker, but I'd strongly recommend you find one. As I've been building, I go to music stores & inspect their steels; maybe you could find one in a shop near you, or you could find someone that owns one?

Good luck -
Thanks for the comments. If I manage to build the lap steel with concealed pickups, I’ll let you know. :)
Regarding the metal round, it sounds like a good idea to leave it un-notched to start with.
I just read your thread about string through and I’m not sure if it made me for certain about which bridge solution to use. Since I’m a real newbie when it comes to this It would be interesting to hear about, let say three or four bridges that would work well for lap steels. I'm sure there's a bunch of people here that has a great deal of knowledge on this issue.
Yeah I hope to find a New Yorker so that I can inspect it, but it will be a tough search, that’s for sure. I’ll try to find as many picture as possible until then.
Starsailor
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:15 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Lap steel project

Post by Starsailor »

Allan wrote:Have you tried doing a search in the 'Steel Guitar Forum'? There are a couple of good threads on that instrument on there.

Allan.....
Yes, I have! I found answers to some of my prior questions, but unfortunately not for the particular ones mentioned above. Maybe I have to register and post this thread there too.

//Peter
Starsailor
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:15 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Lap steel project

Post by Starsailor »

Does anyone have recommendations on shops selling different bridges for lap steels? Ebay didn’t have that much. The only ones I found looks like this:


Image

Image

Image

Image




Do you think these are well working?
At least, to me, they look better than for example a strat bridge. Anyhow it doesn't look like my inspiration, the New Yorker...

What about string hight. Are there ever issues to get enough space between the body/fretboard and the strings?
I mean, if the bridge is too low (even at highest adjustment, e.a strat bridge or similiar) there might be difficulties in picking the strings.
c. winn
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:03 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: Lap steel project

Post by c. winn »

Those are some sweet looking bridges - I wish I did metal work! Any of those look good, but I'll have to go over to the 'bay to see what prices are.

A few folks have mentioned tele bridges with a round for the bridge. Here's a pic:
Image

Modding a tele bridge to accept a round like this is a great way to go...but then again, it's another option for you to weigh. You'd have to drill through metal, which is where I generally draw the line - I'm lucky enough to get things right on wood!

I'm shooting for 1/4" height off the fret board. It seems like a good number, has worked for me in the past, and seems to apply to other steels. Again - shoot for what's comfortable for you. If 1/4" is too low, up the height, just be sure to adjust your p/up to accommodate any string height.
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Georg
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Location: Mandal, VA, Norway & Weeki Wachee, FL, USA
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Re: Lap steel project

Post by Georg »

Don't know about shops. I haven't built any instruments from scratch since the late 70s, and we didn't have the internet then. I dumped all my projects when I moved house back in the 80s.

I kind of like the first (2 pictures) variant. If fastened correctly on a good body it should work, and sound, reasonably well.
I usually prefer bridges that contact the body with two smaller surfaces, over the larger one-surface types, primarily because small surfaces give better contact for transferring clean vibrations without risking overtightening the screws.


BTW: has anyone thought of using the type of "security bolts" we use for door-lock covers (at least in my part of the world), with a long sunken-in nut on one side engaged by a regular screw from the other side. The type that can be unscrewed only from one side (the inside) of the door?

I would think such "security bolts" would be near perfect for "bolting through" the body and tighten well, and they can either be sunk in and masked completely on the underside, or just be sunk in enough to lay flat with the surface. On the top-side their heads are shaped like regular wood-screws - like in those pictures, so it is just a matter of matching metal/look.
Starsailor
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:15 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Lap steel project

Post by Starsailor »

Does anyone have any ideas regarding concealed pickups? :)
Do I have to have pups with very high output so that they can manage to pick up the string vibrations even though there's a piece of wood in between?
Or can I use a pickup with moderate output without worrying about the balance between a hidden and a visible pickup beeing too bad or too different in output/volume? :?
Any similiar experience?
Allan
Posts: 419
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:55 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Lap steel project

Post by Allan »

Starsailor wrote:Does anyone have any ideas regarding concealed pickups?
I am not sure what the point of it is. I think that the concealed PU would get noise from behind the bar. What does this idea add to the instrument?

Confused, Allan.....
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Keep yer tools sharp! That way you can use more of your strength guiding them AWAY from your body rather than forcing the cut!!!
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