Nitrocellulose

Finishing methods and saftey, inlay...
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Pat Comeau
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Re: Nitrocellulose

Post by Pat Comeau »

That is beautifull bro, nice work ;) :)
Allan
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Re: Nitrocellulose

Post by Allan »

The pigment I mentioned earlier arrived today. It's not quite the color I expected but then I did have the option to order a color sample chart and decided to go ahead with ordering based on what I saw on the confuser screen. I am gonna use it anyhow.
I went out as soon as it came. I put a little nitro into a bowl and added just a pinch of the pigment powder, gave it a stir and slapped it onto a piece of scrap which had been sort of sanded a bit. Now, I didn't work too hard at smoothing out any possible clumps in the color medium and I didn't make a slurry of it with thinner before adding it to the lacquer as recommended. I simply put a little into some nitro and stirred it up with a glue brush then slapped it onto the wood. The next thing I did was to go out shopping with my wife. When I checked it on my return it looked good so I gave it another coat with the same mix. Checked again later and it looked even better. If nothing unexpected happens over night I will be making a good mix tomorrow and trying it out on the guitar. I do hope this works, I feel really good about it right now.
Bent, this is all happening with the old lacquer I mentioned before. I am struggling to remember when I actually bought the stuff but I know it is well over two years in the can and possibly three. Goes on like it should and seems to dry just like when it was new.
I'll let y'all know how it goes tomorrow. (weather permitting)

Regards, Allan.....
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Keep yer tools sharp! That way you can use more of your strength guiding them AWAY from your body rather than forcing the cut!!!
rocks66ss
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Re: Nitrocellulose

Post by rocks66ss »

Allan wrote:The pigment I mentioned earlier arrived today. It's not quite the color I expected but then I did have the option to order a color sample chart and decided to go ahead with ordering based on what I saw on the confuser screen. I am gonna use it anyhow.
I went out as soon as it came. I put a little nitro into a bowl and added just a pinch of the pigment powder, gave it a stir and slapped it onto a piece of scrap which had been sort of sanded a bit. Now, I didn't work too hard at smoothing out any possible clumps in the color medium and I didn't make a slurry of it with thinner before adding it to the lacquer as recommended. I simply put a little into some nitro and stirred it up with a glue brush then slapped it onto the wood. The next thing I did was to go out shopping with my wife. When I checked it on my return it looked good so I gave it another coat with the same mix. Checked again later and it looked even better. If nothing unexpected happens over night I will be making a good mix tomorrow and trying it out on the guitar. I do hope this works, I feel really good about it right now.
Bent, this is all happening with the old lacquer I mentioned before. I am struggling to remember when I actually bought the stuff but I know it is well over two years in the can and possibly three. Goes on like it should and seems to dry just like when it was new.
I'll let y'all know how it goes tomorrow. (weather permitting)

Regards, Allan.....

Powder you say! I redid a 1966 Fender Mustang, actually that what got me started working with nitrocellulose lacquer. I purchased my pigment from Stewart Macdonald. By the way, if you didn't know already you can get just about any Luthier supply you would need to build a guitar or repair, I get mot of my stuff from them. http://www.stewmac.com/ there is also another place to buy refinishing supplies, and that is Guitar ReRanch. http://www.reranch.com/
You can even find tutorials on how to do this.

My pigment was a liquid, and depending on the quantity of lacquer, depends on how much pigment to put in for the desired color. No muss no fuss, and especially no clumps or lumps.
I seen where you said you had spray equipment. Man, as easy as it actually is, just go to Home depot or Lowes or what have you in your area, and buy a half gal or gallon of Lacquer, and a gallon of thinner and experiment.

It takes very little time to figure out what is meant as a dry coat, wet coat, a wet coat is just nothing more how heavy a coat you can lay down without it running.

In actuality, for a solid body steel, in my opinion, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between nitrocellulose lacquer and plain lacquer after you were done.


Rocky
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Pat Comeau
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Re: Nitrocellulose

Post by Pat Comeau »

I have some gloss hardner left over from a paint job i did on my van last summer and i was curious of trying to mix that with lacquer for the fun of it to see how it would come out, the hardner not only hards the paint and makes it dry faster it also makes it really shinny and glossy, i don't know yet if i'm able to mix it with lacquer cause it's too cold here right now to do anything, the hardner worked great with my industrial paint i had.

as anyone ever tried that before? :roll: :)
Allan
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Re: Nitrocellulose

Post by Allan »

Hi Rocky. StewMac is great for most of the stuff I ever need. I have been using them for years. They can be pricey but they will most likely have what ever it is anyhow.

I tried to get liquid pigment locally because I wanted to get started on the finish of this thing. The only supplier I could find had it in quarts and nothing else. They wanted $270 for a can! They guy there was real nice and explained to me that the liquid stuff is the same as the powder but held in a suspension of various solvents. He said that I could get the same effect by using the powder and making a slurry either with lacquer or with thinner. As long as all of the clumps are broken up and wetted it will be fine he said, So, I tried it today and he was right. I am still not overly pleased with the color but that's my own fault for being too keen to get started. I will get used to it...
As I said, I do have spray equipment but this stuff brushes on so well that I just don't want to get into the cleaning and messing about with the spray nozzles.
Regarding nitro versus 'plain' lacquer - I think you are probably right and I will have a play with that. It would be nice to be able to go into Lowe-downs or the Home Despot and just buy the stuff.
As I have said to you before, on the other forum, that finish on your guitar is just outstanding. For sure a 'clean machine'.
For info... The manufacturer that Re-Ranch are supplied by have recently applied for bankruptcy protection so there may a glitch coming up in that line of supply.

Pat, lacquer and paint work in completely different ways as far as the chemistry is concerned. So, by all means experiment with that stuff you have left over but even if it mixes successfully just give it loads of time to make sure that it dries properly. I am thinking that, if it makes a skin on the surface, the lacquer solvents will never fully come out and it will stay soft underneath.

Regards, Allan.....
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Keep yer tools sharp! That way you can use more of your strength guiding them AWAY from your body rather than forcing the cut!!!
Bent
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Re: Nitrocellulose

Post by Bent »

Allan, good info! I suppose we won't live long enough to try all the finishes available. The fact that you show how old lacquer performs just as well, is great info.

Seeing as I got the leather dye to experiment with this time, and the tests came out half decent, I will use it as an alcohol stain and then use my leftover nitro.

Also, what I was told, there is nitro lacquer and nitro instrument lacquer. The difference is that the instrument lacquer is flexible and won't crack.

Rocky, yes it does take time to figure out the difference! There is such a minuscule difference between a wet coat and a runny coat!

I noticed painting a car with many dry coats is a breeze compared to painting a steel with a nice wet coat. Before you know it, she runs!
I use a regular compressor with an HVLP gun. I set the gun pressure at around 35 PSI, Try to hold the nozzle about 8" away from the surface and then move in a straight line. Anything you want to comment on that? I am so open to good advice.
http://benrom.com/
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
rocks66ss
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Re: Nitrocellulose

Post by rocks66ss »

Allan,
Stewmac sells the liquid pigment in 4oz bottles for $12.55. even if you bought a quart at the bottle price you saved $170.00 per the price you were quoted from who you bought your powder from.
One bottle I believe is enough for two guitars IMO from what I have left over. I'm all about simplicity myself. I like the pour and go method. It would be my luck I would get a chunk caught in my spray nozzle in the middle of a spray because I didn't mix well enough. And for me I know x amount of liquid to a pint of lacquer will give me y desired tint with repeatability over and over. As far as clean up of the gun, as long as you don't let anything set up in the gun, a couple of ounces of lacquer thinner swish around spray it out and done.

Bent,
Thats exactly what I do, I set between 35-40psi adjust needle to how I like it at about 6-8 inches, and the rest is just comes with doing.

I mentioned earlier I am working on the first steel I built. I am tearing it apart, doing a little routing on the body. and I'm going to remake some of the stainless parts.

This conversation about pigment I decided to re do the body in one of the Fender solid colors. I love the Dakota Red so I'm probable going to go with that. I will remake a new neck, and use a medium dark stain on the wood. I will reset all new frets, and maybe do something a little different with the pearl inlay markers instead of dots. I'm kind of old school, I like to use real fret wire. I always thought the silk screened necks and decals were cheap looking.


Rocky
Steve W
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Re: Nitrocellulose

Post by Steve W »

800 grit seems a little risky as a finishing starter. I have made a few mistakes when using paper of that grit when rubbing out finishes. I would stay at a higher grit and do a bit more work in order to limit the possibility of going through the finish when you don't want to in easy places like edges. Especially if you have a color under your clear, it can be serious work to correct when you make a mistake and sand through.

I liked the finish that I got when I used shellac and then varnish. It's amazing how glass-like you can get the finish when you build up the varnish and then sand it flat. I found the key is having a high speed buffer of some sort so that you can use rubbing compound or just wax and make the haze from the sanding disapear into totally clear glass. High speed is the key. The varnish doesn't make me feel like my brian is getting damaged like nitro spray can. The shellac is almost pleasant smelling. The varnish does take longer but you can put it on a bit heavier than spray with each coat and you have to let it dry fairly well before rubbing out. I've used nitro from guitar reranch and deft or whatever and I hate the toxic-ness of the whole thing, and so does anyone within a hundred feet of it.

Clinesmith does his finish in the same way so check a few of those out and maybe consider the option.
jsnhull
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Re: Nitrocellulose

Post by jsnhull »

Bent wrote:in fact there is more nastiness to nitro vs regular lacquer.
There is no difference between the two. Any true lacquer will be nitrocellulose. Different brands have different formulas that affect thickness (brush v. spray), drying time, gloss (matte to high gloss), and ultimate hardness. I don't use Deft because it never gets really hard, especially with the thicker application necessary for a high gloss finish. I wet-sand with water, not solvent, because water works well and it is inert (bare hands, no smell).

I see a lot of people finishing their instruments with various varnishes, but lacquer is the best. Invisible repairs can be made, because new lacquer melts the old lacquer. You can't do that with any of the modern finishes.

Water-based lacquer is worth looking into. The formulas have gotten much better, so that the handling and application are similar to solvent-based lacquer. It is a lot less smelly and a lot less damaging to the environment. I would definitely recommend it for new instruments.
Bent
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Re: Nitrocellulose

Post by Bent »

Jason. I stand corrected. It sounds like you know. We CAn agree. I am sure, that all lacquer is nasty. That thinner is so bad to breathe that you can take a trip and never leave the farm.

As to your assertion about water based. If it is that good, how come everybody is not using it? I did use it for a walnut table I used once. It set up nicely and to this day the finish has stayed put. And it has to be 16 years since I made it.
Can you do invisible repairs with water based? Is it as flexible as thinner based?
http://benrom.com/
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
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