I think triads are used mostly in the root chord.
Can anyone inform me of the rule of thumb for when to play 6ths as opposed to 3rds?
Thanks!
Thirds vs sixths
Thirds vs sixths
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richard37066
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Re: Thirds vs sixths
Dave-M -
Gotta get ya to stick your head into one of the theory courses on the 'net.
'Til then, the following may tide you over.
Every tune is written with accompanying chordal harmony. For a specified chord - a bona fide chord consisting of three or more notes - said chord can be played in one of what is called either "root" position or an "inversion". From my last post, you know that the simplest chord is the combination of the 1st, 3rd and 5th degrees (notes) of the scale. (C,d,E,f,G,a,b,c) When the chord is played with the 1st (root) on the bottom, the 3rd in the middle and the 5th on top, it is said to be in the "root" position. To "invert" a chord, simply take the bottom note and raise it up an octave such that the "first inversion" is now 3rd on the bottom, 5th in the middle and 1st(root an octave higher) on top. The second "inversion" is now obvious since one just takes the bottom note of the first inversion and raises it an octave such that the chord is now configured as 5th on the bottom, 1st in the middle and 3rd on top. Where to play each one? If the melody is one of the notes in the chord then play the inversion with that note on top. Except: - when accompanying a singer or another instrument, in which case you might want to choose an inversion which does not contain the melody note on top - sounds as if it is "far away" from the note played by an instrument or sung by the singer. In other words, don't clutter things up by getting too close to the lead instrument or singer.
Thirds and sixths? Gotta back up just a bit. More often than not, we do not play a song with full-blown chords on every melody note. We play what I call "chord fragments" - two or three notes which may or may not constitute a chord and which may or may not contain the "root" note of the chord. No root? In many cases, a bass player will play the "root" note of the chord leaving you to use just about anything else you desire. In other cases - and this is dependent upon the long-time experience of the player - your ear may fill in the "root" note. It is "implied" by the notes of the fragment that you're playing.
For an exercise in understanding and hearing "thirds" I would ask you to gain access to something called a "harmonized scale". This is nothing more than a scale whose lead note is accompanied by another note a "third" away. Now, this may be a "major" or a "minor" third depending upon the lead note being played. A "major" third is composed of two notes two whole tones apart while a "minor" third is two notes 1 1/2 tones apart. (A half tone is the pitch distance from one fret to the next on your PSG) A true harmonized scale consists of three-note chords. For our purposes, we back off a bit and use only two notes which constitute a third. This is one of the places where an online course in harmony would really come in handy. Trust me, it doesn't hurt! Do it!
Sixths? Well, this is where things get a little more hairy and a simple explanation is really beyond this posting since you don't, as yet, have that fundamental background in theory and harmony. Let it suffice to say that, first and foremost, the use of a sixth is dictated by the chord used in the harmony. In the simplest example, a 6th chord (remember that one?) is called for in the harmony thus the appropriate 6th can be played as accompaniment. A sixth can also be used "in passing" - from one "fragment" to another - even though the harmony chord is not a 6th. If ya don't "hang on it" then it can be used effectively.
I just "Googled" "music theory and harmony" and found 15 sites on the first two pages that you might use. There are many more.
In an attempt to allay what fears you might have (I had mine some many years ago!) I can describe theory and harmony as, first, simple major and minor scales and how they are constructed - where "accidentals" (sharps "#" and flats "b") come into play. Ya count on your fingers in order to construct any scale imaginable! You'll then be led into both major and minor thirds. Following that, you might then be shown how a combination of major and minor thirds form a chord. Then come the chord extensions. Remember the 6th, 7th, 9th 11th and 13th from a discussion on the strings? Then might come a section on the connection of one chord to another - chord "progressions" - how one chord moves to another. It will become a logical, yet painless, progression in which one slowly accumulates bits of knowledge which, when added together, allow one the freedom to do most anything musically. Note that there is nothing which dictates that you have to persue this to the Nth degree - something bordering a college degree in the subject. You may quit at any time - when you feel that you've gathered enough information to suit your current needs. Then, at some point in the future, when you run into something new and intriquing you can fall back on your basic knowledge, dive into the books and learn something new. It's an ongoing process. Ya don't have to chomp it all off at once.
Once again, I hope that the above has helped just a tad.
Richard
Gotta get ya to stick your head into one of the theory courses on the 'net.
'Til then, the following may tide you over.
Every tune is written with accompanying chordal harmony. For a specified chord - a bona fide chord consisting of three or more notes - said chord can be played in one of what is called either "root" position or an "inversion". From my last post, you know that the simplest chord is the combination of the 1st, 3rd and 5th degrees (notes) of the scale. (C,d,E,f,G,a,b,c) When the chord is played with the 1st (root) on the bottom, the 3rd in the middle and the 5th on top, it is said to be in the "root" position. To "invert" a chord, simply take the bottom note and raise it up an octave such that the "first inversion" is now 3rd on the bottom, 5th in the middle and 1st(root an octave higher) on top. The second "inversion" is now obvious since one just takes the bottom note of the first inversion and raises it an octave such that the chord is now configured as 5th on the bottom, 1st in the middle and 3rd on top. Where to play each one? If the melody is one of the notes in the chord then play the inversion with that note on top. Except: - when accompanying a singer or another instrument, in which case you might want to choose an inversion which does not contain the melody note on top - sounds as if it is "far away" from the note played by an instrument or sung by the singer. In other words, don't clutter things up by getting too close to the lead instrument or singer.
Thirds and sixths? Gotta back up just a bit. More often than not, we do not play a song with full-blown chords on every melody note. We play what I call "chord fragments" - two or three notes which may or may not constitute a chord and which may or may not contain the "root" note of the chord. No root? In many cases, a bass player will play the "root" note of the chord leaving you to use just about anything else you desire. In other cases - and this is dependent upon the long-time experience of the player - your ear may fill in the "root" note. It is "implied" by the notes of the fragment that you're playing.
For an exercise in understanding and hearing "thirds" I would ask you to gain access to something called a "harmonized scale". This is nothing more than a scale whose lead note is accompanied by another note a "third" away. Now, this may be a "major" or a "minor" third depending upon the lead note being played. A "major" third is composed of two notes two whole tones apart while a "minor" third is two notes 1 1/2 tones apart. (A half tone is the pitch distance from one fret to the next on your PSG) A true harmonized scale consists of three-note chords. For our purposes, we back off a bit and use only two notes which constitute a third. This is one of the places where an online course in harmony would really come in handy. Trust me, it doesn't hurt! Do it!
Sixths? Well, this is where things get a little more hairy and a simple explanation is really beyond this posting since you don't, as yet, have that fundamental background in theory and harmony. Let it suffice to say that, first and foremost, the use of a sixth is dictated by the chord used in the harmony. In the simplest example, a 6th chord (remember that one?) is called for in the harmony thus the appropriate 6th can be played as accompaniment. A sixth can also be used "in passing" - from one "fragment" to another - even though the harmony chord is not a 6th. If ya don't "hang on it" then it can be used effectively.
I just "Googled" "music theory and harmony" and found 15 sites on the first two pages that you might use. There are many more.
In an attempt to allay what fears you might have (I had mine some many years ago!) I can describe theory and harmony as, first, simple major and minor scales and how they are constructed - where "accidentals" (sharps "#" and flats "b") come into play. Ya count on your fingers in order to construct any scale imaginable! You'll then be led into both major and minor thirds. Following that, you might then be shown how a combination of major and minor thirds form a chord. Then come the chord extensions. Remember the 6th, 7th, 9th 11th and 13th from a discussion on the strings? Then might come a section on the connection of one chord to another - chord "progressions" - how one chord moves to another. It will become a logical, yet painless, progression in which one slowly accumulates bits of knowledge which, when added together, allow one the freedom to do most anything musically. Note that there is nothing which dictates that you have to persue this to the Nth degree - something bordering a college degree in the subject. You may quit at any time - when you feel that you've gathered enough information to suit your current needs. Then, at some point in the future, when you run into something new and intriquing you can fall back on your basic knowledge, dive into the books and learn something new. It's an ongoing process. Ya don't have to chomp it all off at once.
Once again, I hope that the above has helped just a tad.
Richard
Re: Thirds vs sixths
Thanks for the response, Richard.
What I was getting at was, for a melody note of 3 in the root chord, how would I determine when to play [3(top),1(bottom)] diad as opposed to [3(top),5(bottom)] diad.
What I was getting at was, for a melody note of 3 in the root chord, how would I determine when to play [3(top),1(bottom)] diad as opposed to [3(top),5(bottom)] diad.
Conceive, believe, achieve!
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richard37066
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- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:44 am
- Location: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA
Re: Thirds vs sixths
Dave -
Use them interchangeably!
What do you want to hear? The "root" (bottom) with the 3rd (top) is pretty but sorta puny. It's just a simple major third interval. The 3rd on top with the 5th on the bottom is, indeed, a sixth interval but still lacks a bit of "character". If you then add the "root" in the bass, then things come together quite nicely. A robust, but "root position" chord which has been opened up by raising the 3rd up an octave.
This points to a thing called "closed voicing" versus "open voicing". A simple triad consisting of root, 3rd and 5th in that order is said to be "closed". If you then take the middle note of the triad and raise it an octave then it is said to be "open". The same thing can be applied to the other two "inversions" with good results. To wit: - the first inversion has its notes as 3rd, 5th and root in that order. Take the middle note - the 5th - and raise it an octave. Very pleasant! Lastly, the second inversion has as its' notes the 5th, root, and then 3rd. Take the middle note - the root - and raise it an octave. Once again, a robust chord but with more "character" because it is "open". When I use the word "character" it carries with it a high degree of "preference" - that is, I personally like the "open" voicings because the top note is indicative of a leading, or melody note but with a lot of "bottom" to the chord. The lower notes in the chord seem to "support" the leading tone with more gusto than in the closed voiced version.
All of this points to my opening statement: What do you want to hear? The musicality and interpretation of the melody comes into play here. YOU are the player, here. What does your ear tell you about the sound in the context of the tune? What is your "preference"? Does it seem to "hang together" with the things which precede it and those to follow or does it stick out like a sore thumb and seem out of place? You may use one version at one place and use another version at another place with both of them being perfectly valid. Trust to your ear to tell you which fits the current context. There's no right or wrong except when - as I said above - it is grossly out of "character" within the flow of notes and chords. Fortunately, we can experiment within the confines of our music rooms and the "clunkers" will be heard by no one except ourselves. Trial and error does it. And, man, I've hit my share of clunkers over these last many decades!
Did it help? Hope so.
Richard
Use them interchangeably!
What do you want to hear? The "root" (bottom) with the 3rd (top) is pretty but sorta puny. It's just a simple major third interval. The 3rd on top with the 5th on the bottom is, indeed, a sixth interval but still lacks a bit of "character". If you then add the "root" in the bass, then things come together quite nicely. A robust, but "root position" chord which has been opened up by raising the 3rd up an octave.
This points to a thing called "closed voicing" versus "open voicing". A simple triad consisting of root, 3rd and 5th in that order is said to be "closed". If you then take the middle note of the triad and raise it an octave then it is said to be "open". The same thing can be applied to the other two "inversions" with good results. To wit: - the first inversion has its notes as 3rd, 5th and root in that order. Take the middle note - the 5th - and raise it an octave. Very pleasant! Lastly, the second inversion has as its' notes the 5th, root, and then 3rd. Take the middle note - the root - and raise it an octave. Once again, a robust chord but with more "character" because it is "open". When I use the word "character" it carries with it a high degree of "preference" - that is, I personally like the "open" voicings because the top note is indicative of a leading, or melody note but with a lot of "bottom" to the chord. The lower notes in the chord seem to "support" the leading tone with more gusto than in the closed voiced version.
All of this points to my opening statement: What do you want to hear? The musicality and interpretation of the melody comes into play here. YOU are the player, here. What does your ear tell you about the sound in the context of the tune? What is your "preference"? Does it seem to "hang together" with the things which precede it and those to follow or does it stick out like a sore thumb and seem out of place? You may use one version at one place and use another version at another place with both of them being perfectly valid. Trust to your ear to tell you which fits the current context. There's no right or wrong except when - as I said above - it is grossly out of "character" within the flow of notes and chords. Fortunately, we can experiment within the confines of our music rooms and the "clunkers" will be heard by no one except ourselves. Trial and error does it. And, man, I've hit my share of clunkers over these last many decades!
Did it help? Hope so.
Richard
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Steven Mccauley
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Re: Thirds vs sixths
Thanks Dave for asking that queston. saves me from having to show my nuts . and thanks to richard for having the answers and the blitz to answer.
my many thanks to both of U_ nis
my many thanks to both of U_ nis
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Steven Mccauley
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Re: Thirds vs sixths
Richard . I am a slow reader and I seldom read any the. but I read your post I know aleast 4 times . just to try and let it all soke in. you answered questions I have been trying to figer out for a few years.. So Man you just take the Stage any time. and type your finger tips off. and I will read every word. I wish I lived close to you .I would be a constant pian in the rear till I leard as much from you as I could. I wish I had spent more time learning something I love. now at 61yr. I some time think I have waited to late. but I thank God for given me a the days to and abilty to learn now. So Again my thanks to both You And God.so if you think of any thing about making music you think hey some one mite would like to know this . just send it my way
Steven
Steven
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richard37066
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Re: Thirds vs sixths
Steven -
I am now 75 years old and didn't begin attempting to play pedal steel until four years ago. I've learned a heck of a lot since then but it really was the 50-odd years before that in which I made an honest effort to play jazz guitar and learn that stuff called theory and harmony.
Age doesn't mean a thing! So you're 61. I'm 75 and kickin' life in the butt as best as I can.
I used to teach guitar - with its' accompanying tidbits of theory and harmony - many years ago. Without patting myself on the back, I have been told that I'm an excellent teacher - one who attempts to reduce things to the nuts and bolts of things while avoiding all of the esoteric crap until it becomes absolutely necessary.
It's difficult - and unfortunate - to really convey many things with simply the written word. Lord knows that I try but, inevitably, things just have to get "wordy" at times thus, what starts out as a seemingly simple explanation, soon ends up being a page and a half long!
I recall my many fits and starts when I was much younger therefore, at this point in my life, I'm more than willing to take the time to spread a little knowledge to those who are now experiencing their own set of fits and starts. It's with that thought in mind that I responded to Dave - as best I could - within the limitations of the written word. If you, or anyone else on this forum, thinks that I might be able to shed some light on a given subject then please don't hesitate to ask. If I don't have a ready answer to a question then I'll make every attempt to steer you in the right direction.
I am bouyed by the knowledge that everyone on this forum gives selflessly to one another. I just have to make an attempt to do the same.
Richard
I am now 75 years old and didn't begin attempting to play pedal steel until four years ago. I've learned a heck of a lot since then but it really was the 50-odd years before that in which I made an honest effort to play jazz guitar and learn that stuff called theory and harmony.
Age doesn't mean a thing! So you're 61. I'm 75 and kickin' life in the butt as best as I can.
I used to teach guitar - with its' accompanying tidbits of theory and harmony - many years ago. Without patting myself on the back, I have been told that I'm an excellent teacher - one who attempts to reduce things to the nuts and bolts of things while avoiding all of the esoteric crap until it becomes absolutely necessary.
It's difficult - and unfortunate - to really convey many things with simply the written word. Lord knows that I try but, inevitably, things just have to get "wordy" at times thus, what starts out as a seemingly simple explanation, soon ends up being a page and a half long!
I recall my many fits and starts when I was much younger therefore, at this point in my life, I'm more than willing to take the time to spread a little knowledge to those who are now experiencing their own set of fits and starts. It's with that thought in mind that I responded to Dave - as best I could - within the limitations of the written word. If you, or anyone else on this forum, thinks that I might be able to shed some light on a given subject then please don't hesitate to ask. If I don't have a ready answer to a question then I'll make every attempt to steer you in the right direction.
I am bouyed by the knowledge that everyone on this forum gives selflessly to one another. I just have to make an attempt to do the same.
Richard