Volume and tone control/

Pickups, Diy Electronics, Stompboxes, Guitar wiring...
Paul Higgins
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:35 pm

Volume and tone control/

Post by Paul Higgins »

Hi Everyone..

Tone and volume control's
could you tell what kind do I need..I dont know anything about them apart from what they do..
do I get these from guitar parts outlet..?


or can I get them from electrical out let...we have maplins over here a bit like your radio shack
If so what should I ask for..? is there anything else I need to know about them ?

It is 6 string with a Humbucker pick up
these are the last parts to get now so as to finish drawing / lay out..
then start cutting
Thank you in antisipation Regards Paul
Bent
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Re: Volume and tone control/

Post by Bent »

Hi Paul,
Here is my opinion on the issue.
On pedal steel, the tendency the last decade at least, has been to eliminate tone and volume controls. I agree with this because any kind of switch that the sound has to go through at the source is going to colour your final tone in some way. Anyway, you set the vol and tone on the amp itself and isn't that where you really want to set it?

On the other hand, my opinion is also that you should consider using a volume pedal for added sustain to your notes. To my ears and many others' the tasteful use of a vol. ped. greatly enhances the tone and sound.
http://benrom.com/
21 BenRom pedal steel guitars, a Nash 112 and a 1967 TOS Milling machine with many cutters making one hell of a mess on the floor.
Paul Higgins
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: Volume and tone control/

Post by Paul Higgins »

Bent wrote:Hi Paul,
Here is my opinion on the issue.
On pedal steel, the tendency the last decade at least, has been to eliminate tone and volume controls. I agree with this because any kind of switch that the sound has to go through at the source is going to colour your final tone in some way. Anyway, you set the vol and tone on the amp itself and isn't that where you really want to set it?

On the other hand, my opinion is also that you should consider using a volume pedal for added sustain to your notes. To my ears and many others' the tasteful use of a vol. ped. greatly enhances the tone and sound.
Well that was fast..Thank you Bent..I see where you are comming from saves me money as wll carnt falt it...
I am not questioning your opinion...But with out mention any particular one why are some still useing them...Yes I fully intend to get a volume pedal later on..That is going to be an other question all on its own...as for some reason the range that Ive looked at over here are very expencive and range limmited to what I see avalible over your side of the pond....

I will go with that then no volume or tone...Just waiting now for othert bits..pick up machine heads frets and fret markers..once I have the machine heads I can work out for the head...

No pot's!!! and Ive just received 300mm x 1 mtr copper foil still waiting also 1/2 brass rod..
As you know Allan seems to have taken me under his wing and is helping no end but he's a bit tied up at the moment..so I thought I would ask about the pots..ready to order..to save time..
Thank you again very much for your advice, Regards Paul
p.s Volume control !! at the moment I dont think the nabour's would be pleased if I made the noise I make any louder LOL..
substain at the mo Im still having trouble blocking the notes..not substain LOL...thanks Brent...
OH on you post you say Pedal steel I take it you mean lap
or have I posted in the wrong section...Regards Paul
bobby burns
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Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:20 am

Re: Volume and tone control/

Post by bobby burns »

I don't care for a volume knob mounted on the steel, I'd rather use the pedal. However, I have had several steel that had a tone control, and I used it quite a bit on some of them. Most steels with a tone control will also allow you to switch the tone control out of the circuit.
Paul Higgins
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Re: Volume and tone control/

Post by Paul Higgins »

bobby burns wrote:I don't care for a volume knob mounted on the steel, I'd rather use the pedal. However, I have had several steel that had a tone control, and I used it quite a bit on some of them. Most steels with a tone control will also allow you to switch the tone control out of the circuit.
Thank you Bobby That is an other option..if I deside to put on on what do I ask for, are there special one's for the guitar ? or are they a standard thing....
The one I have here on the cheep steel i purchased that has turned out to sound terrible
with the tone turned right up/ down which ever way it is..the sound is still very treble if thats the way you put it.when I turn it the other way it only has to have a tiny turn and the tone comes off (more treble) but ofter that when you carry on turning it the same way it dosent make any differance...only seems to work the last little bit..I hope you can understand what I mean...so this why I ask what type..Regards Paul
bobby burns
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Re: Volume and tone control/

Post by bobby burns »

I think you want a 500K audio taper pot, and I'm not sure what value capacitor to use off the top of my head. I'll try to look at a few guitars and see what they've got and get back too you.
bobby burns
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Re: Volume and tone control/

Post by bobby burns »

The capacitor on my emmons is .047.
If you want a smooth gradual adjustment, use an audio taper pot. If you want a "boo-waah" effect, you may want to try a bigger cap. and a linear taper pot, as the bigger cap will cut more highs, and the linear pot will cut it all with a smaller rotation of the knob.
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michaelm
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Re: Volume and tone control/

Post by michaelm »

Hi Paul, as you may have already discovered, this controls issue has been discussed at length on some of the other forums.

As a player, I prefer to have volume and tone controls on my instruments, fretted or steel. I would rather have them there and not use them than not have them there and wish that they were. Additionally, you can always put some switches to take the controls totally out of the circuit if you so desire.

As for the components themselves, 250 K ohm pots and .047 mfd caps are usually used with single coil pickups, and 500 K pots and .022 caps are usually used with humbuckers. To my knowledge, this is not carved in stone anywhere and you can feel free to experiment with all sorts of values. IMO, practical values for pots range from 100 K to 1 M ohm and for caps from .010 to .100 mfd. Audio taper pots are usually recommended, but again sometimes the linear gives a better result. I tend to prefer linear for volume and audio for tone, but the next poster here is likely to embrace the opposite. You can find components from a variety of online vendors and sometimes even at your local Radio Shack.

Here are a couple of links that I hope may be of some help or interest. Basic wiring diagrams: http://www.guitarelectronics.com/c=umwl ... resources/ and http://www.1728.com/guitar3.htm

Some discussions of tone circuits on the Fender Steel Forum: http://z8.invisionfree.com/Fender_Steel ... howforum=5

My own experiments with tone controls on my Fender PSG: http://sites.google.com/a/wildblue.net/ ... ontrol-mod

All my opinions, of course, and YMMV. HTH.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Allan
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Part 1 of 2 part post...

Post by Allan »

Hmmmmm...

There are many and varied opinions showing up here.
I find myself at odds with many of them too! OK, anyhow, here goes my thoughts. (followed by a wee bit of theory)

First, volume pots...
The human ear is not linear as regards amplitude. That is why the logarithmic pot came into being. The log pot is generally referred to as 'audio taper' or 'A' type in the US and as a log pot in the UK. If you want the sound level to seem to vary in agreement with the rotation of the control then this is the type that you need to use here. As has been said, generally, 250K is fine for a single coil and 500K for a humbucker. These values will work but you will NOT go to jail for trying others!

Now, tone pots...
With reference again to the human ear 'ole. Unlike with amplitude, your ear does respond in a reasonably linear fashion to perceived tonal content so, there are two options here. If you want, simply, to set the tonal output of your guitar then you will want to use a 'linear taper'. ('B' type in the US) However, if you want to use the Boo-Wah effect, then you want it all to happen with a small swing of the pot so you will need either a log pot or an anti-log pot. But, with that said, the Boo-Wah depends on how you, as an individual, swing the knob. So, there are some who would find a linear taper just fine for this. Horses for courses. Note that anti-log's are hard to find and can be expensive since they are not made in the same number as the other main types. As regards ohmic values, use the same value as you use for the volume control.

The capacitor...
In conjunction with the tone pot the capacitor will act as a filter allowing a controlled amount of the treble content of the signal to pass to ground. Good values would be around .05mF with a 250K pot (single coil PU) or .02mF with a 500K pot (humbucker). Sticking with the 'preferred value list' that would come out at .047mF and .022mF. However, experiment all you like with this, these cap values are just starting points. Some of the Gretsch guitars, for instance, do not have tone pots and, instead, have a multi-position switch that changes capacitor values to produce tonal change.
Note that capacitors are notoriously variable in 'actual' value and two examples, marked the same and even from the same pack, can give audibly different responses!!! Precision (calibration quality) caps cost BIG bucks.

[part 2 follows]
Last edited by Allan on Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Allan
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Part 2 of 2 part post...

Post by Allan »

There is a limit to post length so I had to split this saga into two parts - this is part two...

If you are sitting in the bathroom reading this on your laptop, now is the time to do the paperwork and finish the job. It's about to get boring! You have been warned...

The theory bit...
The term "Taper" is used mainly in the US - "Function" or "Law" is used elsewhere. Taper refers to the relationship between the mechanical position of the wiper of the pot and the resulting electrical characteristic of the resistive track.

Audio (Log) Taper Pots...
Audio or Log Taper refers to the law of the pot being logarithmic. This comes about solely because of the way the human ear 'hears' sound pressure levels. For the human ear to register sound as "twice as loud", about 10 times the sound pressure level has to be applied to it! So, these are designed so that the higher the Volume knob is turned, the faster the output increases. Thus, turning the knob through 'X' degrees will electrically increase the signal by ten times but will appear (to your ear) only to have doubled the level. Now, a further rotation of the control by the same angle, 'X', will again allow a further ten times the signal to pass with an apparent doubling once more as far as the ears are concerned. We are actually now passing one hundred times as much signal as at the start of this study. So, for a rotation of 'X' we have gained, firstly, a gain of ten then a gain of ten times that. Two equal steps have given us, discretely, signal gains of ten and one hundred from the start point. Think back to high school mathclass - a logarithmic progression!
Did you notice that I said above 'about 10 times'? Just to make things right I will add that the response of the human ear is not quite logarithmic and, to be even less co-operative, it varies from person to person! However, a logarithmic ('A' taper) pot is close enough for our purpose.

Linear Taper Pots...
Linear refers to the law of the pot being a straight line. With the pot set at 50% of its rotation, the potentiometric output or the resistance between the end and the wiper will also be 50%. The electrical characteristic of the pot directly relates to the mechanical position of the wiper. This is appropriate in many circumstances of variable resistor use, but as it happens, not in Volume Control applications. Linear Taper Pots are more suitable as tone control pots except as noted above. (see Boo-Wah effect)

For the purists I should add that I am using the the term 'gain' in the conversational mode, not in the electrical/electronic sense. So, since we are looking at non-active circuitry, when I say 'gain' I am actually referring to 'less attenuation'.

So, there you have it.
Regards, Allan.....
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Keep yer tools sharp! That way you can use more of your strength guiding them AWAY from your body rather than forcing the cut!!!
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